Translation of Hymns

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mfmohlma
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Postby mfmohlma » Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:41 pm

marianomarini_vi wrote:My english is too bad to explain exactly what I mean with "cadenza".
As you know, words and stuff has an "accent".
In some italian hymns they don't match so we have difficult to sing and understand too.


"Accent" would be an accurate word. Putting the wrong emphasis on syllables can make words quite unintelligible. This is just another difficulty with translating music.

marianomarini_vi wrote:For "doctrinal mistakes" I can quote one for all:
"O my Pather" ("Padre mio").
There is is a sentence saying that the "human thougth say that we DON'T have only one parent in heaven, but the real reason say that we have a mother there". (?) Maybe not a mistake but a nonsense!


I definitely won't get into a doctrinal discussion here, but you may want to check the English lyrics here.

jbh001
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Postby jbh001 » Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:46 pm

marianomarini_vi wrote:My english is too bad to explain exactly what I mean with "cadenza".
As you know, words and stuff has an "accent".
In some italian hymns they don't match so we have difficult to sing and understand too.
The word you are probably looking for is scansion (It.: scansione?), which is a word most English speakers have never heard.

In other words, the musical rhythms aren't matched with the textual scansion well (if at all) in the Italian translations.

jbh001
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Postby jbh001 » Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:51 pm

oregonmatt wrote:I definitely won't get into a doctrinal discussion here, but you may want to check the English lyrics here.
Or translated by Google here. (It seemed to have trouble with the words dwellest, single, stare, and royal courts, but I don't know Italian even if I can pronounce most of it.)

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aebrown
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Postby aebrown » Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:45 pm

jbh001 wrote:The word you are probably looking for is scansion (It.: scansione?), which is a word most English speakers have never heard.


I don't think you have to go for such an exotic word -- the obvious cognate is cadence. But scansion is a cool word that I wasn't familiar with, so I appreciate you sharing it.

carolmay13
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Great Music

Postby carolmay13 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:51 am

I'm currently living in Italy -- and will be for the next few years. I can't help but notice how awkward the hymns in the Italian hymnal are, with multiple syllables and even words scrunched together to try to fit into one note. The lyrics are neither compelling nor moving. Sorry translators. I know you did your best within the parameters you were given. I could certainly do no better.

I do understand how difficult it is to make these translations fit into a set musical cadenza, which brings me to my point: Why exactly are we trying to put a square peg into a round hole...?

There are a great many Italian hymns that have long been sung in Catholic and other Christian Churches across Italy that don't have any theological issues in them (We already have one by St. Francis of Assisi in the English hymnbook). I think it would be great if the Italian members could have these great Italian hymns added to their hymnal.

Italy is a land of great musicians and great music. If there is anywhere the music should be magnificent it is here. Yet despite voice talent in our area nobody ever sings a musical number. It's like music needs to be gotten out of the way.

Maybe Italians are being made to suffer through these watered down hymns because of concerns of uniformity -- but what value is there in this, really, other than when foreigners come to visit they get to feel comforatable with their favorite tunes...? I don't see the present set of severely weekened hymns really serving the Italian members all that well.

lajackson
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Postby lajackson » Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:12 pm

carolmay13 wrote:Why exactly are we trying to put a square peg into a round hole...?

There are a great many Italian hymns that have long been sung in Catholic and other Christian Churches across Italy that don't have any theological issues in them


I believe that more than just finding hymns that do not have any theological issues in them, there are some important theological teachings that the Church is trying to share throughout the world. And yes, this presents major challenges in any language. So, until someone comes a long who can do better (and I cannot, either), I think the hymns in the current book will have to continue to serve as best they can.

I am certain that the General Church Music Committee would welcome any suggestions you have, should you want to recommend any of those other hymns. I know that there are a few hymns in the Spanish and French languages that are in those hymnals and not in the English hymnal. Perhaps the same is true, or could be, for the Italian one.

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marianomarini
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Postby marianomarini » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:11 pm

When I had said to one of my friend (Lorenzo Rossato) that his work, as Italian Hymns Translator Leader, was realy poor He said to me.
I know that this shold be my duty but I never seen the Hymns BEFORE they was published!
When I founded some mistake (doctrinal or musical) I always called at him, Stake president, ecc. to made the appropriate correction.
The answer was always: "This is and this will be until new revision!".
So, we continue to sing: "I giudizi tempestivi cerca sempre di evitar" (Inno 145, I don't know in English).
This means that we need to evitate the "well-timed" judgment! The rigth word will be "intempestivi" but it will change a litle bit the relation between syllables-notes.
But we can use: "I giudizi frettolosi ....". This fit as well as "tempestivi" (tem-pes-ti-vi, fret-to-lo-si).
No way. It seem to me that Church is becoming like a dinosarus (a big body with a little brain). Legs falling into ditch waiting for a signal from "there, up above".
La vita è una lezione interminabile di umiltà (Anonimo).
Life is a endless lesson of humility (Anonimous).


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