IP based Stake Conference solution

Discussions around receiving, originating, and holding Church broadcasts and conferences in meetinghouses including schedules, setup, equipment, and support.
jviola
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IP based Stake Conference solution

Postby jviola » Sun Feb 28, 2021 8:11 pm

We are trying to switch to a network-based broadcast for Stake Conference. We will have IP Cameras, OBS, IP-based PTZ controller, POE Network switch. This is great for streaming to the church's broadcast system. Question: How do we push this video in real-time back to the Overflow TVs and Projectors? Possibly using a network-based solution? We have poor quality when we use the building's video distribution devices. I'm hoping to avoid it, but wonder if anyone has come up with a solution?

We have issues with some of our Projects/TVs have a wavy top right corner. Also, the quality isn't very good. We have tried for a long time to figure out the problem but without success. We are hoping to bypass the building's Video distribution equipment and have a Network solution if possible.

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Mikerowaved
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Re: IP based Stake Conference solution

Postby Mikerowaved » Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:54 am

Are your overflow areas isolated from the live audio coming from the chapel? I ask because something like a projector setup in the attached gym is very difficult to do with a setup like yours due to video lag from each step (IP cameras, OBS, even the projector.) If you're thinking of piping your signal to a TV in a RS or Primary room that's out of earshot from the chapel audio, that's probably doable.
So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.

jviola
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Re: IP based Stake Conference solution

Postby jviola » Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:12 am

We are currently using Sony DVI70 cameras and have it tied in the church's video distribution device. We have the main project in the chapel that display on the wall behind the speaker. We have 2 projectors in the cultural hall, and a television in both the RS and Primary room. We do not see any delays. These cameras are using RCA. If we switch to IP based cameras will there be a noticeable video delay?

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Mikerowaved
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Re: IP based Stake Conference solution

Postby Mikerowaved » Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:34 pm

jviola wrote:If we switch to IP based cameras will there be a noticeable video delay?
You will definitely see more lag than you are now. Standard definition video using the RCA jacks is routed around your stake center very close to real time. IP cameras have a lot of work to do to get a video signal from A to B. Here's a pretty good summary...

Why does an IP camera Lag?

Even HD video projectors will have their own small contribution of latency. Moving from SD to HD makes for a nice improvement in quality, but it's not without its pitfalls. Latency is a big one. As with almost anything, there are more expensive solutions that are better at minimizing latency. For example, we use SDI wherever possible. I've also seen NDI work well when setup properly. These generally use more expensive cameras than your standard IP variety.
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CalS201
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Re: IP based Stake Conference solution

Postby CalS201 » Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:03 pm

Using IP based video transmission and OBS will result in noticeable video delay! The video must be compressed before it is transmitted on the IP network and decompressed after it is received. Most cameras and PC/Apple computers w/OBS will take too long to compress/decompress the video.

If you want realtime (no delay) transmission of HD video you have to use products like long HDMI cables with amplifiers, fiberoptic HDMI cables(100ft for $100), HdBaseT adapters($115/pair) that use dedicated CAT5/6 cable up to 500ft, SDI adapters($80/pair) that use dedicated RG59/6 coax cables up to about 500ft (BUT LIMITED TO TRANSMITTING ONLY 1080P30 or 1080i60 signals - NOT 1080P60), or some wireless products like IoGear GW3DHDKIT (~$200 and 100ft) that have <1ms delay. Using a fast hard-based switcher like the Roland V-1HD+ eliminates the delay caused by OBS.

If you upgrade to cameras like the PtzOptics20X, you get SDI, HDMI, and IP video interfaces. The SDI and HDMI outputs are realtime.

In our stake we just completed an upgrade. We ran 4 dedicated CAT5e cables (2 cables carried HdBaseT signals and 2 cables carried POE+LAN) from the library, through the attic, to a quad wall jack located near the last pew in the chapel. We then used 30 & 40ft patch cables to connect two cameras mounted on 6.5ft poles, located on either side of the last center pew. We used SDI adapters and existing coax (1080P60 will not work) to connect the projector in the overflow area and the large screen TV (for TAB choir music) placed at the front of chapel. We used a cheap $15 HDMI to AV adapter to inject video into the bldg RF distribution system for the RS and Primary rooms. The old projector was retired. A used Epson Powerlite 2250U, 5000 lumen, low hours projector was purchased from eBay -- which produces a vivid, bright 1080 picture much better than the old projector or even the new projectors provided by FM group. Finally, we repurposed the old VGA projector wiring (a CAT5 cable ) between the library and the pulpit by connecting four 600ohm audio isolation transformers at each end of the cable which lets us send line level audio either direction on the cable. The additional audio channels mean we can play TAB choir videos from the library and inject the sound into the chapel PA system as well as send dedicated mic inputs (piano, instruments,etc) from the chapel to the library.

Hope this gives you some ideas and direction for your upgrade.........................Good Luck!!!

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Mikerowaved
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Re: IP based Stake Conference solution

Postby Mikerowaved » Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:16 am

@CalS201 Thanks for letting us know your stake's configuration. It helps when we can see what others have done. Just one point of clarification:
CalS201 wrote:...BUT LIMITED TO TRANSMITTING ONLY 1080P30 or 1080i60 signals - NOT 1080P60
This is true IF your SDI adapters & coax can only pass 1.5Gb/s reliably. That's known as HD-SDI. I regularly use 3G-SDI (3Gb/s) to capture 1080p/60 video from a couple of cameras using Blackmagic HDMI to SDI adapters. Works great, even over rather long coax runs.
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CalS201
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Re: IP based Stake Conference solution

Postby CalS201 » Tue Mar 09, 2021 1:05 pm

@Mikerowaved You're correct - you can run 1080P60 over SDI. I would be interest in knowing the cable type and length of your coaxes.

The real question is how far can you go - which is determined by a lot of factors. The type, gauge, and condition of the cable, type and quantity of inline connectors, and which generation of SDI adapters you are using all play a part. 1080P30 and 1080i60 will typically go 30-50% farther then 1080P60 simply because the cable attenuation is lower at 1.5Gb/s.

Looking at this chart http://www.gepco.com/PDF_files/npu_SDIC ... rt.pdf?v=1 it shows that if you're using good "certified SDI" RG6 18awg coax (VSD2001,VSD2001TS) then you can transmit 185-370 feet at 1080P60 or 243-564 feet at 1080P30. With RG59 20awg coax (VPM2000,VPM2000TS) you can transmit 150-290 feet at 1080P60 or 204-431 feet at 1080P30. Additionally, every time you have to use an inline connector you lose some distance - one manufacturer say you lose about 16 feet for each connector.

All this is good to know when you when you are upgrading to HD equipment. For example: If you have an existing 300 foot run of RG6 coax to the podium, with a 50 foot patch coax to a projector or TV - 1080P60 may not work at all or at best may work sometimes whereas 1080P30 should give you solid operation. Temporarily adding an extra 50-100 feet of cable is a good way to test the long-term reliablity of your cabling. If you can't go an extra 50 feet you need to change something!

Also, you must be careful when handling/rolling up the patch cables - sharp bends or kinks can permanently damage a coax and result in "no picture" on the projector or TV the next time you use the cable.

jviola
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Re: IP based Stake Conference solution

Postby jviola » Tue Mar 09, 2021 6:25 pm

Thanks for all the information. We currently have 2 Cat 6 Ethernet cable and 1 RG6? cable run to each camera location. One Ethernet cable has been removed the connectors are using the wiring for RS232 to control our PTZ cameras. The Ethernet cable and Coxial cable is not used. It sounds like we can use SDI or HDMI cameras with no/minimum latency as a better option than IP. The camera we are looking at is the PTZoptics 30xhttps://www.amazon.com/PTZ-Optics-30X-S ... ics&sr=1-4 If we use HDMI cameras we need to purchase HDMI over Ethernet converts. If we use 3G-SDI we need to purchase the SDI version of ATEM.

The same amount of latency and same video quality? If so, then I would choose to use HDMI because I would prefer to have an HDMI version of ATEM.

What would you choose?

CalS201
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Re: IP based Stake Conference solution

Postby CalS201 » Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:40 pm

jviola wrote: What would you choose?
That's a good question.

Let's look at the camera choice: The PtzOptics30X camera is $1799 whereas the 20X camera is $1699. The 20X provides the zoom range needed in the chapel.

Power for the camera: The camera accepts POE so I would use one CAT cable for power and IP connection.

Choice of PTZ Controller: The Rs232 version is $299, the IP version is $650, and a really GOOD free IP touch program https://www.pantiltzoom.cam/ runs on any iOS or Android device. Something to know about is the minimum step size for Pan/Tilt movements. The free touch program has the ability to make the smallest possible step whereas the RS232 Controller step size is about 4 times larger.

Choice of Switcher: The switcher needs to have a Preview output, Program Output, Scaler on at least one input, easy overlays, and several easily adjustable analog audio inputs, and a simple to use control surface. Each model of the ATEM series has some deficiency whereas the Roland V-1HDPlus https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08KSJGCG8/ meets all criteria - but it cost a bit more at $1200.

Sending HD video over SDI: Using your existing RG6 coax - you need to change the coax connectors to BNC connectors rated for 3Ghz operation and just plug the cable into the camera SDI output. Buying a SDI to HDMI converter https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01FSQYH5O/ gets the signal back into HDMI format for the Switcher.

Sending HD video over CAT5e/6 cable: Using your second existing CAT cable, you need to purchase a pair is HdBaseT adapters https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079M2BFKD// using one adapter at each end of the CAT cable. The nice thing about HdBaseT is you can transfer the video AND the IR signal AND the RS232 signals. Having the IR remote control available is a good backup for PTZ control and some people may actually prefer it. HAving the RS232 available lets you use a lower cost or existing PTZ Controller.


My choices would be.

Camera: 20X to save $300 on three cameras . These cameras can also be purchased used on eBay for $1000-$1500each.

PTZ Controller: I very much prefer the free iOS program running on an iPad, but others may prefer a more traditional control surface of the RS232 or IP version.

Switcher: The Roland V-1HD+ is my choice. Compared to the ATEM Switchers it has more of the needed features (especially audio features) and a better control surface.

Sending HD Video from camera: I prefer using HdBaseT because you get the added benefit of having the IR and RS232 signals available. If you don't care about IR and RS232 then SDI is a good choice. Having used SDI, HdBaseT, and wireless, my personal subjective judgement is HdBaseT is also the most robust.

CalS201
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Re: IP based Stake Conference solution

Postby CalS201 » Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:16 am

jviola wrote:.......We currently have 2 Cat 6 Ethernet cable and 1 RG6? cable run to each camera location.....

What would you choose?
If you choose HdBaseT adapters and use the 2 CAT cables then the remaining coax is available for other purposes.

You could send line level chapel audio from the AV rack through the coax & an audio isolation transformer, then plug into the audio input jack of the camera. The camera can be setup to automatically stream RTMP directly to youtube or the church webcast portal whenever the camera is turned on. You can control the power by putting a timer on your POE LAN Switch in the AV rack to cycle power on/off for each Sacrament meeting in the bldg. Now you're broadcasting all meetings without human intervention - if you use a static stream key.


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