Record Request - Ward Geocode doesn't stick

Discussions around using and interfacing with the Church MLS program.
RossEvans
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Postby RossEvans » Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:05 pm

I have to say that the business rules -- as described by lajackson's reverse-engineered documentation and confirmed by JLRose -- do not make inutuitive sense to me. For example, how can a ward clerk help maintain the stake codes if the ward MLS can't see or alter what the stake clerk put there?

But since our ward, and I beileve our stake, do not populate either field I will not worry about it too much. I do think that if there are such complex rules they should be documented officially to MLS users. And an entire training session could be devoted to those rules, so long as there is no quiz at the end. :)

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Postby lajackson » Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:55 pm

boomerbubba wrote:I have to say that the business rules -- as described by lajackson's reverse-engineered documentation and confirmed by JLRose -- do not make inutuitive sense to me. For example, how can a ward clerk help maintain the stake codes if the ward MLS can't see or alter what the stake clerk put there?


In our stake, we do not want the wards maintaining the stake codes. We want them busy taking care of their wards, not worrying about whether or not the stake presidency is considering dividing them.

As JL Rose points out, however, the ward could be asked to initiate a stake code, if they are willing to cooperate.

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Postby mpospisil » Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:26 pm

If the ward geo codes produced at the unit level are not populating the stake field, what needs to happen so it will flow through?

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Postby lajackson » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:49 am

mpospisil wrote:If the ward geo codes produced at the unit level are not populating the stake field, what needs to happen so it will flow through?


Post #19 in this thread explains how geocodes work. If the stake is not seeing ward codes, is it usually because there is already a stake code present. Once a stake code is entered at stake MLS, the ward code will not populate to the stake computer or change the geocode that is on the stake computer. In other words, the ward does not control and cannot change the stake geocode on the stake computer. The flowthrough is a one time event and only takes place if the stake does not already have a geocode present.

If a record at the stake level truly does not have a geocode entered, and a code is not flowing from the ward, there is a bug in the software. Before I reported the bug, however, I would do these things.

Make sure that the stake geocode was not present in MLS.

Make sure that the ward has done a Send/Receive to transmit a geocode. (It may be that the ward has to change the code to trigger sending it. I do not know if this is required or not.)

Make sure that time has elapsed after the ward has done a S/R and then make sure the stake does a Send/Receive to obtain the data.

If this does not work, I would report the bug. In the meantime, I would just manually enter the stake geocode into MLS at the stake computer, especially if I had not told the ward what code I wanted them to use.

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Postby russellhltn » Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:35 pm

lajackson wrote:If the stake is not seeing ward codes, is it usually because there is already a stake code present.


This is confusing. I dug up my test machine and double-checked.

Looking at the Geocode data entry screen, there are Ward Code and Stake Codes. Those are two separate fields and the two columns appear at both the Ward and Stake level.

The ward can enter values into either field. The Stake can only enter values into the Stake code. So for the stake code field, there is "Ward-entered Stake codes" and then there are "Stake-entered Stake codes".

Since only the ward can enter/modify the Ward Geocodes, there seems to be only one obvious way that can work.

I did verify that under 3.3.0 and 3.3.1, any value entered into the Ward Geocode (by the ward) is automatically populated into an empty Stake Geocode upon closing the screen. The wards are unable to leave the stake geocode blank if the ward geocode is populated.

Now, someone help me out. Wasn't there at one time just one Geocode that had a complex behavior as Larry describes? If so, then that might explain things. What the ward enters, the ward sees. If the stake enters nothing, it sees what the ward enters. If the stake does enter something, then the ward never sees it.

The only real change is that the stake now has a "Ward Code" column that only shows what the ward enters. The so-called stake code retains the old (odd) behavior.

At least, I think that's what's going on....
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Postby lajackson » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:02 pm

RussellHltn wrote:This is confusing.


Amen.

RussellHltn wrote:Looking at the Geocode data entry screen, there are Ward Code and Stake Codes. Those are two separate fields and the two columns appear at both the Ward and Stake level.


Correct. And to further confuse matters, the stake geocode on the ward MLS is not the same as the stake geocode on the stake MLS.

RussellHltn wrote:The ward can enter values into either field. The Stake can only enter values into the Stake code. So for the stake code field, there is "Ward-entered Stake codes" and then there are "Stake-entered Stake codes".


Yes. And the stake geocode the ward sees is always and only the ward-entered code. (The stake code the stake sees can be any number of things.)

RussellHltn wrote:I did verify that under 3.3.0 and 3.3.1, any value entered into the Ward Geocode (by the ward) is automatically populated into an empty Stake Geocode upon closing the screen. The wards are unable to leave the stake geocode blank if the ward geocode is populated.


So far, so good. And this was on the ward MLS.

RussellHltn wrote:Now, someone help me out. Wasn't there at one time just one Geocode that had a complex behavior as Larry describes? If so, then that might explain things. What the ward enters, the ward sees. If the stake enters nothing, it sees what the ward enters. If the stake does enter something, then the ward never sees it.


Mostly true. Since the days of MLS, I think there has always been more than one geocode. Nevertheless, . . .

The purpose of the stake geocode field on the ward MLS is so that the ward can send a code to the stake that is different from the code the ward wants to use.

Ward MLS:

The ward enters a ward geocode. If they stop there, the code flows to the stake geocode field on the ward MLS.

The ward may choose to enter a different stake geocode (either on their own or at the request of the stake). If they do, the ward MLS will show different ward and stake geocodes on the ward computer.

Whatever the ward does, it is the stake geocode from the ward computer that attempts to flow to the stake and become the stake geocode. That code is either the ward code that also propagated to the stake field or the separate stake code that the ward manually entered.

Whatever the stake does, nothing will flow back to the ward. And at any time, the ward may change either the ward or stake geocode showing on the ward MLS.

Stake MLS:

The stake geocode from the ward computer tries to flow to the stake MLS. If there is not a stake code already present, the stake code from the ward becomes the stake geocode on the stake MLS. If there is already a stake code present, the stake code from the ward does not flow.

Separately, the ward geocode shows in stake MLS as the ward geocode. The stake cannot change it or do anything with it.

The stake may change, delete, or do anything it wishes with the stake geocode on the stake computer. Again, the ward will never know what the stake does with the code. If the stake deletes the stake geocode, the stake geocode from the ward computer will try once again to flow to the stake computer.

The stake can do nothing with the ward geocode displayed on the stake computer. (However, those geocodes also should not be populating the stake geocode dropdown list that is the discussion of another thread. If they are, there is a bug.)

Clear as mud.

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Postby RossEvans » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:02 pm

RussellHltn wrote: Now, someone help me out. Wasn't there at one time just one Geocode that had a complex behavior as Larry describes? If so, then that might explain things. What the ward enters, the ward sees. If the stake enters nothing, it sees what the ward enters. If the stake does enter something, then the ward never sees it.


I wan't around for the early years of MLS, but I was a ward clerk during the bad old days of MIS. In that system, as I recall, there was only one Geo Code field. What the ward clerks entered there did propagate to the stake. I don't recall what happened if the stake made an entry.

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Postby ffrsqpilot » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:33 pm

lajackson wrote:Amen.



Correct. And to further confuse matters, the stake geocode on the ward MLS is not the same as the stake geocode on the stake MLS.



Yes. And the stake geocode the ward sees is always and only the ward-entered code. (The stake code the stake sees can be any number of things.)



So far, so good. And this was on the ward MLS.



Mostly true. Since the days of MLS, I think there has always been more than one geocode. Nevertheless, . . .

The purpose of the stake geocode field on the ward MLS is so that the ward can send a code to the stake that is different from the code the ward wants to use.

Ward MLS:

The ward enters a ward geocode. If they stop there, the code flows to the stake geocode field on the ward MLS.

The ward may choose to enter a different stake geocode (either on their own or at the request of the stake). If they do, the ward MLS will show different ward and stake geocodes on the ward computer.

Whatever the ward does, it is the stake geocode from the ward computer that attempts to flow to the stake and become the stake geocode. That code is either the ward code that also propagated to the stake field or the separate stake code that the ward manually entered.

Whatever the stake does, nothing will flow back to the ward. And at any time, the ward may change either the ward or stake geocode showing on the ward MLS.

Stake MLS:

The stake geocode from the ward computer tries to flow to the stake MLS. If there is not a stake code already present, the stake code from the ward becomes the stake geocode on the stake MLS. If there is already a stake code present, the stake code from the ward does not flow.

Separately, the ward geocode shows in stake MLS as the ward geocode. The stake cannot change it or do anything with it.

The stake may change, delete, or do anything it wishes with the stake geocode on the stake computer. Again, the ward will never know what the stake does with the code. If the stake deletes the stake geocode, the stake geocode from the ward computer will try once again to flow to the stake computer.

The stake can do nothing with the ward geocode displayed on the stake computer. (However, those geocodes also should not be populating the stake geocode dropdown list that is the discussion of another thread. If they are, there is a bug.)

Clear as mud.


I understood you perfectly. What you have described, especially in your last paragraph, is what I have encountered and tried to explain over on the other thread. The ward generated geo code populates the stake geo code on the ward computer and then flows to the stake computer and populates both columns.

Previous stake clerks had never used the geo code function so nothing was ever entered at the stake level. However when I began using the geo code function I found all these weird codes that had been entered by one of the units at the ward level. Not only are the codes showing in both the ward and stake columns but also in the drop down list. Scrolling through a gazillion (j/k) codes to use the ones I wanted to enter became rather cumbersome. If this is by design then it needs to be changed. If it is due to a bug then it needs to be reported and hopefully corrected.

Jim

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Postby lajackson » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:22 pm

FFRsqpilot wrote:I found all these weird codes that had been entered by one of the units at the ward level. Not only are the codes showing in both the ward and stake columns but also in the drop down list. Scrolling through a gazillion (j/k) codes to use the ones I wanted to enter became rather cumbersome. If this is by design then it needs to be changed. If it is due to a bug then it needs to be reported and hopefully corrected.


It is by design. If you wish it changed, send a request through the regular feedback system.

All of the gazillion codes are there because they flowed from the ward to the stake geocode column. (They are not there simply because they show up in the ward geocode column on the stake MLS.) If you make the request, until the developers change the code, your only option is to delete them or change them to something else.

You should be able to select one of the stake codes and tell it you want to delete all of them (all the instances of that code). Any duplicates should also go away at that point. Depending on how detailed the ward was, this may or may not be any faster than just deleting each of them one at a time. And yes, when you make your request, you may wish to throw in the request for a delete all button. It appears you could certainly use it in this situation. Then again, you will probably have this problem solved first.

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Postby ffrsqpilot » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:51 pm

lajackson wrote:You should be able to select one of the stake codes and tell it you want to delete all of them (all the instances of that code). Any duplicates should also go away at that point.


That's just it.....you can't delete the codes. The remove buttons don't work! (At least on the stake computer sitting on the stake clerk desk in the stake clerks office here in wonderful western Colorado)! That is the whole point I have been trying to make!

You cannot delete any geo code that came in from another computer. You can mash, push, tap, pound or take a crash axe to either remove button and it does absolutely nothing. As mentioned in previous posts the only way possible to change a code is to substitue another code in there. At your's and aebrown's suggestion I will try that the next time I go to the stake center and see what happens.

btw - even though I am a retired Air Force pilot I still like the Marine way of handling things.....if what you are trying to fix doesn't work, get a bigger hammer!


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