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Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:13 am
by greggo
I've had no experience personally, but I understand that there is a way to keep a member's record from being moved from the ward.

Would it be practical to put this temporary hold on a YM's record if it's getting close to his move date and the Mel PH ordination has not yet been recorded?

Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:35 am
by PNMarkW2
scgallafent wrote:That would require that (1) the ordination be performed, (2) the assigned representative find the ward clerk and get him to enter the information and trigger an MLS update, (3) the assigned representative find the stake clerk and get him to trigger an MLS update and print the certificate, (4) someone find the stake president to sign the certificate, and (5) deliver the certificate.


Just a side note, the Melchizedek Priesthood Ordination form as printed from MLS (at least the one I've been printing) indicates that the Ward should be printing the certificate, not the Stake. That would remove step three as the assigned representative would now have the certificate and could simple present it to the Stake President when they next meet (if not that day, then soon). The certificate itself could be mailed if the member has move before it could be presented.

Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:38 am
by russellhltn
scgallafent wrote:I don't think it's realistic that the recording and certificate process can be completed the same day in all cases. We're in a reasonably compact stake (20 minutes across), but I don't think we could accomplish this. That would require that (1) the ordination be performed, (2) the assigned representative find the ward clerk and get him to enter the information and trigger an MLS update, (3) the assigned representative find the stake clerk and get him to trigger an MLS update and print the certificate, (4) someone find the stake president to sign the certificate, and (5) deliver the certificate.

While doing everything the same day might be ideal, it's not realistic in most stakes.


I think the primary goal here is to record the ordinance. Getting a signed certificate can come later, probably forwarded though the family.

As such, getting items 1 and 2 done in a single day isn't that far-fetched. But what is critical is to get it done before the member leaves the area.

The biggest issue is to get the information to the ward clerk in a timely manner. From what I've seen, that frequently is verbal though one or two intermediaries. Sometimes critical information is left out which forces the clerk to delay until the missing information is obtained.

What would work is to create a form that contains all the information the clerk needs and place that where the clerk will find it immediately.

I'm a little surprised at the suggestion that many ordinations take place on a day other then a Sunday. I'm not sure why that would be. Is it because Stake Conference/Stake Priesthood is too close to the start of school? Or is a result of the ordination process itself lagging behind and then rushing to meet the deadline? It may not be eliminated, but unless this is preferable for some reason, the numbers could be reduced.

Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:45 am
by russellhltn
PNMarkW2 wrote:Just a side note, the Melchizedek Priesthood Ordination form as printed from MLS (at least the one I've been printing) indicates that the Ward should be printing the certificate, not the Stake. That would remove step three as the assigned representative would now have the certificate and could simple present it to the Stake President when they next meet (if not that day, then soon). The certificate itself could be mailed if the member has move before it could be presented.


Unless I'm missing something, it's six of one, half a dozen of the other. The only difference I see is that some means would have to be found to get the ward's printed copy to the stake for signing.

That means either the stake rep would have to hang around until the ward prints it (which would insure the all-important step 2 is done the same day), or some other means will have to be found to get it there. Either case, care will have to be taken to insure the copy is kept in good condition.

Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:11 am
by aebrown
RussellHltn wrote:What would work is to create a form that contains all the information the clerk needs and place that where the clerk will find it immediately.


The Melchizedek Priesthood Ordination Record form is precisely that form. There's no need to create a new form -- just properly use the one that exists. That form contains all information needed to show that the ordinance is authorized and to record the ordinance on the membership record. Of course that form needs to go through several hands from the beginning to the end of the process, so handling that workflow efficiently takes some organization.

RussellHltn wrote:I'm a little surprised at the suggestion that many ordinations take place on a day other then a Sunday. I'm not sure why that would be. Is it because Stake Conference/Stake Priesthood is too close to the start of school? Or is a result of the ordination process itself lagging behind and then rushing to meet the deadline? It may not be eliminated, but unless this is preferable for some reason, the numbers could be reduced.


In our stake, it can certainly be the case that stake priesthood meeting is close to the start of school; different schools and service academies have different start dates. But one of the biggest reasons is scheduling family members who want to be present at the ordination, perhaps even to perform the ordinance.

The sustaining in stake conference or stake general priesthood meeting should always be the last step before the actual ordination, and those meetings are always on a Sunday. So there shouldn't be anything about the actual process that would prevent it from happening on that very Sunday. Most often it is a matter of how soon all the right people can come together to make the ordination actually happen. Finding a time that meets all those schedules can sometimes take hours or even days.

How we deal with it

Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:29 pm
by EDDIEDOW
In our Stake, I'm the Stake butt't Clerk: Membership, we have identified two problems: Getting the MPH ordinance recorded by the Ward and getting the Stake leaders signatures on the certificates and back to the member in a timely manner.
We resolved these very well by making a copy of the MPH ordinqance record, stamping on copy in red "Stake Copy" and the other, also in red, "Ward Copy". When the High Councilor goes to a Ward to preside over an irdination, he leaves the Ward copy with the Clerk, and returns the Stake Copy to the Stake Clerk, who gives it to Membership Clerk. This tells me the ordination was performed. I then check to be sure the ordination is recorded on the member's record, and remind the Ward Clerk if it is not. When it shows up on the member's record, I print the certificate, have it signed by Stake leaders and the High Councilor then takes it to the Ward and gives it to the member, or to the Clerk to give to the member.
This also ensures that a copy of the record is available is one becomes lost, which sometimes happens when the Ward Clerk or Membership Clerk is changed at a critical time, or when a High Councilor forgets it in his other suit. The Ward has one to file in their records, and so does the Stake, per instructions on the record form.
Maybe not the best, but it works for us.

Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:40 pm
by lajackson
JKELogan wrote:The church encourages worthy young men 18 years or older to be ordained elders before leaving for college (I think BYU has a requirement for this, correct me if I'm wrong). Apparently a lot of wards don't know this which is why a stake like mine performs 50-100 ordinations every semester (or more depending on our demographics). The rest of the time on ordinations is tracking down our "ordained" priests which were ordained at home but never got recorded on their records.


No, BYU does not set the requirement for elder ordination. However, the Church Handbook of Instructions does encourage in the way you say, so any young man who arrives at the Y as a priest, and is worthy, is going to be recommended by his bishop and stake president for ordination.

JKELogan wrote:My suggestion to home wards is, check your records in early August and make sure your ordination recording is getting done. It isn't just a problem with Elder ordinations for young men, I've seen Aaronic priesthood and even High Priest ordinations get missed.


Hmmm. Planning ahead. What a novel concept. [grin]

Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:45 pm
by scgallafent
RussellHltn wrote:As such, getting items 1 and 2 done in a single day isn't that far-fetched. But what is critical is to get it done before the member leaves the area.

The biggest issue is to get the information to the ward clerk in a timely manner. From what I've seen, that frequently is verbal though one or two intermediaries. Sometimes critical information is left out which forces the clerk to delay until the missing information is obtained.


As a high councilor, my mileage varies with getting both (#1 = ordination, #2 = recording by ward clerk) done on the same day. If the ordination is performed after stake conference, it generally ends up waiting until the next Sunday when I can give the information to the ward clerk.

RussellHltn wrote:What would work is to create a form that contains all the information the clerk needs and place that where the clerk will find it immediately.


As Alan_Brown points out, the Melchizedek Priesthood Ordination Record already exists and contains everything needed. I make a copy of the completed form and hand it to the ward clerk and return the original to the stake clerk. The ward clerk records it, the stake clerk later verifies that the ordination has been recorded correctly, and a week or two later I discover a certificate with the stake president's autograph sitting in my box. Our process is very similar to what E&LDow described in his stake.

RussellHltn wrote:I'm a little surprised at the suggestion that many ordinations take place on a day other then a Sunday.

I've only had one non-Sunday ordination that I can remember. I apologize if I gave the impression that it was frequent.

Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:05 pm
by russellhltn
scgallafent wrote:As a high councilor, my mileage varies with getting both (#1 = ordination, #2 = recording by ward clerk) done on the same day.


While that would be the ideal situation, as long as #2 is done before the newly minted Elder leaves, then its should all work out.

Typically how much time is there between the ordination and when he leaves?

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 3:49 am
by aebrown
RussellHltn wrote:While that would be the ideal situation, as long as #2 is done before the newly minted Elder leaves, then its should all work out.

Typically how much time is there between the ordination and when he leaves?


There is no "typical" time. It ranges from months down to days. It all depends on the timing of the sustaining date, time to get the ordination scheduled, and the particular school schedule. Obviously it's the cases where the new elder is leaving in just a week or two that present the challenges.

It definitely helps if the stake representative (typically a high councilor) is aware of the new elder's schedule for leaving and will accelerate the process (including doing everything necessary to help the ward clerk record the ordination promptly) in those cases where the schedule is tight.