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Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:14 pm
by scgallafent
RussellHltn wrote:While that would be the ideal situation, as long as #2 [recording by the ward clerk] is done before the newly minted Elder leaves, then its should all work out.

Typically how much time is there between the ordination and when he leaves?

I've had only one situation where there wasn't an intervening Sunday between the ordination and when the new elder left for school or wherever else.

I try to get the paperwork to the ward clerk the next Sunday, but I can't think of a time when I've ever managed to get him the paperwork the day of the ordination.

Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:26 pm
by jbh001
Alan_Brown wrote:That's a nice theory, but not particularly practical in a wide variety of situations. For one, the authorized stake representative has no ability to record the ordination in MLS. For another, the ordination may be happening at a time (a weekday or a Sunday evening, perhaps) or a place (the young elder's home, for example) where no one is in the building who can record the ordination in the ward's MLS. And the stake president is quite unlikely to just happen to be at that particular building at that particular time -- chances are that the building where it happens isn't even the stake center.
I must be mistaken in my recommendation. I was operating under the assumption that Stake MLS cannot record Melchizedek Priesthood ordinations; it must be done at the Ward level of MLS. Thus only the ward clerk (or someone with will similar administrative access rights in Ward MLS) can record a Melchizedek priesthood ordination. But having never used Stake MLS I don't know that this is the case, as it may now be possible in Stake MLS (since the beginning of this thread was in 2007).

When the ordination takes place outside of the building where the ward MLS computer is, then of course it would have to wait until it could be recorded.

But if a stake representative shows up for a Melchizedek Priesthood ordination at the ward building, and the ward clerk (or someone with similar administrative access to MLS) is present, there is no reason (in my mind) for that stake representative to leave the premises without a certificate in hand ready for the stake president's signature, and the information already recorded in MLS.

I'm lost as to how having the stake president present in your scenario above has any bearing on the ward clerk recording the ordination into MLS (unless you are referencing Abraham 4:18), or what the stake center (or any other location) has to do with my scenario unless that location also happens to be where the ward computer is located. I was advocating for the same-day recording of the ordination, but I don't recall proposing trying to get the certificate signed by the stake president the same day as the ordination, yet that seems to be what others inferred from my comments.

Posted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:47 pm
by jbh001
scgallafent wrote:To complicate things, we typically have a bunch of ordinations that are performed on the day of stake conference after the appropriate sustainings are completed. Now we've got a dozen-plus young men, the people who ordained them, the various high councilors involved, ward clerks, and the stake clerk all trying to coordinate while families would like to get home from stake conference. We typically perform those at the stake center, so we're not even at the building where the ordinance would be recorded.
But you are stating this as though it is a surprise event sprung on ward clerks without notice. Unless your ward clerks do not regularly attend bishopric meetings, your bishops are more negligent than not, or just aren't bringing up it up in bishopric meeting, the ward clerk knows well in advance that Melchizedek priesthood ordinations are planned for individuals in the ward.

Having been a ward clerk before, I felt it was my duty to stay on top of such things and proactively gather the information I needed to accurately and timely record such information. The stake president may have ultimately been responsible for getting it recorded, but it was up to me as ward clerk, not the stake president, to actually do the recording.

At stake conference or priesthood meeting, I would quickly approach the individual who performed the ordination(s), introduce myself as ward clerk, and request the information I needed to record the ordination. It usually took less than 30 seconds to gather it and write it down. If I knew I wasn't going to be able to get to all of them, then I would assign... er... enlist the help of the bishop, and/or his counselors to gather the information for me. It was a simple process and it worked well for most situations.

Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:54 pm
by sgcurtis-p40
PNMarkW2 wrote:Just a side note, the Melchizedek Priesthood Ordination form as printed from MLS (at least the one I've been printing) indicates that the Ward should be printing the certificate, not the Stake.


There is a discrepancy with the instructions on the MP form and the more recent MLS instructions (see MLS message from 17 Apr 2009, "Melchizidek Priesthood Ordination Record") which notes that the stake clerk prints the certificate, which is then sent back to the ward with the high councilor.

From an "order of things" standpoint, the ward recording the ordination and the stake printing the certificate sits right with me. The membership record resides in the ward and the ward clerk has stewardship over those changes (CHI, Book 1, p. 148). The stake president holds the keys of the Melchizedek Priesthood in the stake and supervises all ordinations (CHI, Book 1, 39, 148). Having the stake print the certificate is the last "control" on the process to ensure that it is done properly. (Remember, the certificate can be printed "free-form" from any unit's MLS regardless of whether the ordination has actually been recorded.)

Similar to an earlier post in this thread, I distribute a ward copy (I keep a copy as a placeholder in the files) of the MP ordination record with the assigned stake representative. Once completed, they copy the form, give the ward copy to the ward clerk (or bishop) and bring the copy back to me. I also attach a half-sheet of brief reminders to the MP ordination record for the stake representative to refer to. (This helps when there's a new ward clerk or asst ward clerk.)

I keep all completed records in a folder titled "Awaiting verification of ordination." Once I verify the ordinance is recorded in MLS, the certificate is printed and signatures obtained at the next presidency or PEC meeting. Our stake president now knows with certainty that, if he's signing the certificate, the ordinance has been recorded. I handwrite "Ordination Verified in MLS mm/dd/yy" and "Certificate printed mm/dd/yy" on the ordination record and then file it in the archive binder. Without this process going through the stake, it is difficult for the stake president to ensure that all authorized ordinations were completed and recorded. (It also provides consistency in the paper stock used to print certificates, but now we're just splitting hairs...)

From the perspective of managing this at the ward or stake level for the past 11 years, in both MIS and MLS, and with 3 different stake clerks, I have found this to be the best practice. Since I'm now the stake clerk, I get to pick how we do it -- always subject to the stake president's approval, of course. ;)

What the MLS Software manual says...

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:49 am
by jasonfitt
Here is what the MLS Software Manual says:

"Aaronic Priesthood ordinations are authorized
by the bishop. Melchizedek Priesthood ordinations
are authorized by the stake president. Both
ordinations are recorded by the ward clerk using
MLS.
The stake should return the Melchizedek
Priesthood Ordination Record to the ward as soon
as the ordination is complete so it can be recorded
on the membership record
."

So, the stake returns the completed Melchizedek Priesthood ordination form back to the ward clerk, and then the ward clerk records it in MLS.

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:57 am
by aebrown
jasonfitt wrote:Here is what the MLS Software Manual says:

"Aaronic Priesthood ordinations are authorized by the bishop. Melchizedek Priesthood ordinations are authorized by the stake president. Both ordinations are recorded by the ward clerk using MLS. The stake should return the Melchizedek Priesthood Ordination Record to the ward as soon as the ordination is complete so it can be recorded on the membership record."

So, the stake returns the completed Melchizedek Priesthood ordination form back to the ward clerk, and then the ward clerk records it in MLS.


But all this has been superseded by the new capability in MLS 3.3 for the stake to record MP ordinations. Stakes are free to use the old workflow if they'd like, but they also can take a more direct role and record the ordination and generate the certificate before anything ever gets back to the ward.

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:55 pm
by pilgrim1581
mkmurray wrote:The solution is for you and your local leadership to decide.

These forums are not designed to be a place to decide/discuss/debate Church policy, that is what the handbook is for. The intent here is only to discuss Church technology. Thank you.


OK then, page 113 of the church handbook suggests the stake clerk can do it. I don't feel like this is a debate, but the tools aren't in place to do what the handbook suggests can be done.

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:04 pm
by aebrown
pilgrim1581 wrote:OK then, page 113 of the church handbook suggests the stake clerk can do it. I don't feel like this is a debate, but the tools aren't in place to do what the handbook suggests can be done.


What tools do you need that are not available? Are you aware that MLS 3.3 does allow the stake clerk to record the MP ordination?

Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:05 pm
by russellhltn
pilgrim1581 wrote:
mkmurray wrote:The solution is for you and your local leadership to decide.

These forums are not designed to be a place to decide/discuss/debate Church policy, that is what the handbook is for. The intent here is only to discuss Church technology. Thank you.


OK then, page 113 of the church handbook suggests the stake clerk can do it. I don't feel like this is a debate, but the tools aren't in place to do what the handbook suggests can be done.


While it is true that the forums is not to debate policy, please note that the quote in your post is from over 3 years ago. Since then there has been a new handbook and significant changes in what can be done in MLS. The situation has changed during the life-time of this thread.

As Alan points out, MLS 3.3 changes everything on this issue.

Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2011 9:13 am
by daryl1
With the roll out of the new Handbooks and MLS 3.3 this issues is now resolved. This thread should be closed by stating the solution. Stakes will now be able to record the MP Ordination.