Ordinances with No Valid Record: Testimony of Witnesses

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lajackson
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Re: Ordinances with No Valid Record: Testimony of Witnesses

Postby lajackson » Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:16 pm

krk22 wrote:The current bishop is NOT concerned about the validity or truthfulness of the testimony of the two parents but is still insisting on a written testimony signed by the former ward's bishop in order to be compliant with the CHOI (even though there is no requirement in the CHOI for doing what he is requiring). For some reason he is interpreting there to be requirements which are not stated in the CHOI.

If the objective is to get a baptism and confirmation recorded, then someone needs to find out the "some reason" the bishop is hesitating. And someone still needs to get a statement in the first place.

While there may be a discussion about whether the members should sign the statement in front of a member of the old bishopric or in front of a member of the new bishopric, the Handbook is very absent a statement that any bishop needs to also sign the statement.

Has he not read the Handbook recently?

And if the former bishop has moved across the country, then the current bishop is placing an obstacle to the recording of the ordinance(s).

There are two people who would normally speak with the bishop about this, the clerk or the stake president. If your bishop has assigned a counselor to oversee the work of the clerks, you might speak with him and ask him to consult with the bishop. If not, you might speak with the stake clerk and suggest he consider having the stake president speak with the bishop.

This is a very interesting discussion. But there are some key pieces missing from this story.

So, if the objective is to get a baptism and confirmation ordinance recorded, I would start by getting a statement from the parents with the needed information and then deal with (or have someone else deal with) the bishop after that.

And if the objective is to have a nice discussion about bishops interpreting the handbook, speak on. (Although I think we have pretty much covered most of the opinions and options in the discussion so far.)

At some point, it would be fun to learn the rest of the story. And you should all be very glad I am not one of the parents.

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Re: Ordinances with No Valid Record: Testimony of Witnesses

Postby russellhltn » Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:21 pm

lajackson wrote:There are two people who would normally speak with the bishop about this, the clerk or the stake president. If your bishop has assigned a counselor to oversee the work of the clerks, you might speak with him and ask him to consult with the bishop. If not, you might speak with the stake clerk and suggest he consider having the stake president speak with the bishop.


Would the High Councilor that's assigned to the ward be of any help?
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Re: Ordinances with No Valid Record: Testimony of Witnesses

Postby lajackson » Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:27 pm

russellhltn wrote:Would the High Councilor that's assigned to the ward be of any help?

Sure, if he is tactful, knowledgeable, and the bishop respects his opinion. He might be the person to better understand the concern of the bishop.

But the way the scenario has been described, either the stake president is going to tell the bishop, er, suggest to the bishop what to do, or the ward budget is going to fund a trip for the couple across country to visit their old bishop. Now that would be a hot topic, wouldn't it? [grin]

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Re: Ordinances with No Valid Record: Testimony of Witnesses

Postby krk22 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:55 pm

russellhltn wrote:
krk22 wrote:Not sure one needs "keys" to interpret the manual.


You haven't seen our thread on "broadcasting" meetings in the chapel. There are any number of ways of looking at it and someone's has to be the final say for the unit.


No doubt. I don't think there is anyone who would argue against someone having the final say and that person being the Bishop.

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Re: Ordinances with No Valid Record: Testimony of Witnesses

Postby krk22 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:03 pm

lajackson wrote:
I think we have pretty much covered most of the opinions and options in the discussion so far.

At some point, it would be fun to learn the rest of the story. And you should all be very glad I am not one of the parents.


We have covered most of it and I thank everyone who has contributed. This is all good discussion. I plan on discussing with the Bishopric this Sunday. Before then, I needed to make sure that I was interpreting the handbooks according to generally accepted interpretations. At least now I can tell my Bishop that his interpretation is in the minority.

I will make sure to post a follow-up with the conclusion to the story.

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Re: Ordinances with No Valid Record: Testimony of Witnesses

Postby krk22 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:07 pm

russellhltn wrote:
Would the High Councilor that's assigned to the ward be of any help?


I did CC the High Counselor in an email which explained my interpretation of the 16.1.10 guidelines. However, he has always historically said, "It is up to the Bishop" regardless of circumstances.

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Re: Ordinances with No Valid Record: Testimony of Witnesses

Postby krk22 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 9:09 pm

lajackson wrote:
But the way the scenario has been described, either the stake president is going to tell the bishop, er, suggest to the bishop what to do, or the ward budget is going to fund a trip for the couple across country to visit their old bishop. Now that would be a hot topic, wouldn't it? [grin]


More likely that the Bishop would require the Baptism to be redone.

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Re: Ordinances with No Valid Record: Testimony of Witnesses

Postby russellhltn » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:24 am

Are you able to figure out what the bishop's concern is? I suspect the parents have photos - probably not of the baptism itself, but the typical dressed in white next to the person who is going to baptize him. Not "proof" according to the manual, but certainly collaborating evidence - and perhaps something that would put the bishop at ease. And quite likely it has a date electronically embedded in the photo.
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Re: Ordinances with No Valid Record: Testimony of Witnesses

Postby krk22 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:36 am

His concern is that the ordinance was performed under another Bishop's / Ward's jurisdiction and so evidence from that Bishop / Ward is required to validate the ordinance in order to update the membership record. He compared it to him having to "validate worthiness" (his words) of an individual from another ward who is visiting to perform an ordinance in our ward.

That is his concern, that the ordinance was not performed under his (our ward's) jurisdiction so he has reservations with "validating" it himself. When really, the guidelines in 16.1.10 are not for "validation" of the ordinance, per se, but validation of the validity / truthfulness of the "testimony" of the witnesses. It is (or should be) assumed that IF the ordinance was performed, it was performed properly and with the proper authorization.

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Re: Ordinances with No Valid Record: Testimony of Witnesses

Postby lajackson » Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:26 am

If the former bishop has moved some distance away, perhaps after the members sign their testimony the new bishop might be willing to call the old bishop to satisfy his concerns with a direct conversation between the two bishops on the subject.


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