WiFi Password

Discussions about Internet service providers (ISPs), the Meetinghouse Firewall, wired and wireless networking, usage, management, and support of Meetinghouse Internet
harddrive
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Postby harddrive » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:04 am

Gary_Miller wrote:How about the Primary Teacher, Cub Scout Den Leader, or Boy Scout Troop Guide. Where does one draw the line?



I would suppose the same thing the leaders are doing, checking calendars, looking at lesson schedules, reading the news letter, referring to the conference talk that's being taught in Priesthood and RS meeting, adding something the heard in their notes and journal, using the scriptures, etc.. Is that enough or do you want me to go on? I can think of allot of reasons the "General Membership" may have to use the WIFI not only during Sunday meetings but during other times they are in the church. We even use it during Round table to look up Boy Scout related items.


Gary, I agree on checking calendars, looking at lesson schedules, reading the news letter, but for the other items you suggested the general membership should be using something like an iPad, iPod Touch, iPhone or some other device that can store these items. Sure notes and Journal can be updated locally and stored at the server, but the general population should have something that they can put the stuff on and not rely on the church network to get this information.

I personally use an iPod Touch and I have the scriptures, conference talks, magazines, hymns, lesson manuals and so many other items and I don't need the a network connection to read them or study them or follow them in class. I think people need to be considerate of resources when they use items. To make things the fastest, they should be locally and not always pulled over the wire.

Just my 2 cents worth

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johnshaw
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Postby johnshaw » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:09 am

RussellHltn wrote:(John's not the only one with FM problems.)


Have I been that vocal? :) - In 2009/2010 before responsibility was handed over to FM, I wanted to put wireless in our buildings. We sat down, discussed the benefit of Consumer vs Cisco and decided that for a few hundred extra dollars (some good ebay purchases) we'd go with Cisco. Having LDSAccess in all 9 of our meethinghouses has been significant for our members. We made a good strategic decision in the Stake Presidency, and got it done (BTW, back then, the FHC would send you out a Brand-spankin new Cisco Wireless-G for family history use) Ordered them, supplemented with ebay and we were up and running.....
“A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom.”
― Thomas Paine, Common Sense

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johnshaw
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Postby johnshaw » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:25 am

The funny thing about meetinghouse Internet / Wireless / Network is that the money is available to implement the equipment, all FMG had to do was budget for it and it was there. The real issue with FMG doing this work (where issues exist) is they do not think strategically about working with the STS. Here is an example. My Stake President forwarded me an email saying with a firewall registration in one of our meetinghouses (the FM group installed a new rain-aware sprinkler system for the meetinghouse and wanted to put it on the network). They just up and did it without talking to me, letting me know it was going to happen etc... The problem. An FHC exists at that meetinghouse, and a statically assigned printer. After their work, the building still had wireless, but the FHC couldn't print. So, I had to leave my family, drive 1/2 hour to the meetinghouse, spend the 1/2 hour it takes to update the printer and the computers and drive back. To me, that was a reactive approach, I had to act based on an incident they created with their work. They are not equipped, typically, to understand the entirety of the network, which is why they SHOULD be consulting with STS prior to ANYTHING they do. That issue reflects on ME, I'm the guy known in the stake that manages the computers and the printers.

Maybe there are other STS out there that could say, well, that FHC can wait until I'm available, but that is not how I roll. Who knows whether that was the day someone came in from off the streets and the Spirit of Elijah touched them, was it the point in time that will make a difference in their lives? I have a personal conviction that in any calling I have, my effort will be as great or greater than ANY effort I see among the saints.

I don't expect to be catered to by the FMG, I expect a couple of minutes of time, a quick phone call, that is not asking too much. FMG, however, doesn't have any other real role that requires something like that. I think they are uncomfortable in that role as a group.
“A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom.”

― Thomas Paine, Common Sense

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johnshaw
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Postby johnshaw » Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:37 am

I long for the days that the Budget is a proposal that the leadership make and that is sustained by families of the unit. It is likely something we'll go back to as we're asked to fund the budget each year so tithing dollars can be used to support countries that are growing in numbers, but increase in tithing is far outpaced due to the economic situation of those growing members.
“A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom.”

― Thomas Paine, Common Sense

atticusewig
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Postby atticusewig » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:16 am

I think that most bandwidth problems might be able to be solved with
a caching proxy server in meetinghouses. A custom appliance tuned
for church websites and supplied by the church would probably be
best, as not all STS have the know-how or time to setup such
a system on their own.

Gary_Miller
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Postby Gary_Miller » Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:18 am

aebrown wrote:Although I would certainly agree that most if not all callings can benefit from using WiFi, I think it's certainly possible and even required to draw lines if your building's current network simply won't support hundreds of people using the connection simultaneously. Sure, we may all agree that the nursery leader [B]could benefit from accessing LDS.org, but is that more important than the bishop accessing CDOL to find how to contact another bishop or to enter a missionary application, or for a ward clerk to adjust an upcoming event on a calendar that had to be moved and send out notifications about it? Those answers are pretty clear.[/B]


Bro. Brown, you assuming that the bishops calling is more important than the Nursery Leader. Some would say its higher up the ladder than the Nursery Leader. When in actuality its on the same track just in a different station. And at times the nursery class has to have priority over what the Bishop needs are. And lets not forget that the Bishops number one priority should be the youth of the church, from primary ages on up to Young Adults.

So in your scenario I would say on Sunday during meeting hours gospel instruction should take priority over the bishop or clerks trying to do as you described, that would include the nursery leader. Those other things are not as important as they may seem and can be done later when the building is not as busy.


aebrown wrote:Leadership often requires making judgments about how to allocate relatively scarce resources (budgets, building use, the bishop's time, etc.); this is a similar situation where in some cases some people will simply have to be denied WiFi access.


I agree but those judgments and decisions have to be prioritized on sound principles. To base the decision solely on ones calling is not sound principles. You have to take into consideration all the stake holders involved and how they would benefit as well as the organization. In our case of out the password to all the members (stake Holder) it would seem that the organization has more to benefit from it than to lose, even if the may at times cause the net work to slow down.

aebrown wrote:That doesn't mean that leaders and other people involved don't make efforts to improve the network so that more people can benefit from it, but that may take some time.


I know they are doing what they can with what they have to work with. But with holding the password while we work to make things better does not benefit anyone.

aebrown wrote:I don't see how the only possible conclusion is that "the management side of FM has no practical experience." My first assumption (which I know is certainly true in some cases) is that budgets are sometimes tight and when the FM group has to prioritize needs, enhanced WiFi coverage may come behind fixing a leaky roof, paying the electric bill, and resurfacing the parking lot that is riddled with potholes.


I agree there has to be priority's set in all things and there has to be leeway for unseen contingencies. However, having a back ground in FM (22 years in the Air Force managing millions of dollars of Facilities and infrastructural) I know that practical experience is more important when it comes to making decisions and prioritizing requirements. What limited experience I have had with the local FM group it was obvious that they had no piratical experience when it came to Management of the Facilities and setting priorities.

aebrown wrote:Certainly some FM groups are weak in the IT area, but it doesn't seem practical for the Church to create a whole local organization for managing IT, so there will be some rough areas as we implement IT improvements.


I'm not talking about a separate organization. I'm talking about hiring personnel who have experience in installing and repairing net works, and getting the job done. STS should not have to give direction to the FM Group on what needs done or how to do. However, I have seen examples of that scenario many times on this form and in my own stake.

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johnshaw
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Postby johnshaw » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:31 am

The release of the new youth curriculum for SS, YW/YM has changed the dynamic here as well. The FMG who have put off implementing the Meetinghouse Internet are going to feel this pressure.
“A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom.”

― Thomas Paine, Common Sense

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johnshaw
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Postby johnshaw » Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:36 am

Gary_Miller wrote:I agree there has to be priority's set in all things and there has to be leeway for unseen contingencies. However, having a back ground in FM (22 years in the Air Force managing millions of dollars of Facilities and infrastructural) I know that practical experience is more important when it comes to making decisions and prioritizing requirements. What limited experience I have had with the local FM group it was obvious that they had no piratical experience when it came to Management of the Facilities and setting priorities.


Our newly called PFR has a similar experience, in my stake we are supported by 2 different FMG and his initial assessment of both is similar - or at least the ability to align priorities of their own group and the stakes they service is lacking, it may not be the case everywhere. This may actually be done on purpose to keep costs down. Stakes, in my opinion, do a poor job of helping as well, we should probably each have a couple of Service Missionary couples assigned to do the 'sweep' duties that is a gap between what local building WBR's are not doing, and what FMG is not doing due to lack of time or resources.

What is defiantly true in our area is that the Meetinghouse Internet responsibilities have stretched them beyond their abilities, which results in obfuscation or minimizing what they are 'supposed' to do - according to them, but not according to what they've been directed to do.
“A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom.”

― Thomas Paine, Common Sense

Gary_Miller
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Postby Gary_Miller » Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:52 am

JohnShaw wrote:The release of the new youth curriculum for SS, YW/YM has changed the dynamic here as well. The FMG who have put off implementing the Meetinghouse Internet are going to feel this pressure.


Better get them passwords out.:)

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Postby aclawson » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:23 pm

Gary_Miller wrote:While I understand that the SP has the key of leadership for the stake. In the case of giving out passwords I find it hard that a SP on his own decided to not give out the passwords but did so on the advise of their STS. Which I believe was bad advise given all the reasons I have heard here on the forms.


No large organization anywhere in the world allows public access to the same network where their administrative computers reside, and with the Wifi passwords circulating in the wild that is exactly what is happening here. When the networks were installed in these buildings the opinion I gave to the stake president was that each bishop should be allowed to distribute the password as they deemed necessary. This was done. When I started running out of IP addresses I asked global services to give me more. This did not present any problems.

What DOES present a problem is that with only the fraction of a second required by a google search anybody in the world knows that they can sit in the parking lot and get free internet access that is untraceable. They could send out spam. They could run a business. They could be doing illegal, unethical or immoral things. Yes, they are hamstrung somewhat by the church firewall but I wouldn't bet a green jello salad with shredded carrots that there isn't a 15 year old out there who can't figure out a way through it. Then consider that the MLS systems - usually running Windows XP - are sitting there, and those are definitely showing their age and are subject to any number of zero day exploits.

The biggest problem isn't one of giving out the password to too many people, the problem is that access is freely available to the general public. This is a serious security hole that needs to be addressed. If the intent is to provide free internet to everybody in the country - and this is exactly what is happening now - then the security schema needs to be adjusted.


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