No Unit Budget Allowance for summer camps

[Gary_Miller]

I'm sure that the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve knows what it cost to run a scout program, but that doesn't mean that a $200/person camp was part of their vision. And the numbers in the current budgeting system doesn't doesn't strike me as consistent with that idea.

Just looking at the structure and numbers behind the current budget system, I can only come to one of two conclusions:

1) If the budget was to pay for everything, then Youth camps were envisioned to be much cheaper.
-or-
2) The budget wasn't really intended to cover youth camps, but that any ward "surplus" was to be used to help defray the costs.

Otherwise the current system doesn't make much sense to me when trying to apply it so broadly across the church where you can have so much variability between the number of youth in a given ward.

Just using the guidelines for funding youth activities in the Handbooks tells me different. It uses the terms "possible exceptions", "may ask", may authorize", and "not usually approved". You can bet your hat the Brethren knew what they were doing and what it cost to fund a ward. You can also bet your hat that they also knew that stake and ward leaders would not always follow the principles as they are only human.

[russellhltn]

Let me ask a different question - how does one determine what the "right" cost for a scout camp is? I see the church as still coming down from the large locally-raised budgets of the past. That create a clash between the traditionalist and the guidelines.

Clearly, if the camp price is still too high, then fundraising will be necessary. Even if some wards are able to fully fund it by gutting other activities doesn't mean that the camp cost isn't excessive.

I find mlh78's statement that they charge to just cover the food an interesting take on the situation.

[allenjpl]

Let me ask a different question - how does one determine what the "right" cost for a scout camp is? I see the church as still coming down from the large locally-raised budgets of the past. That create a clash between the traditionalist and the guidelines.

Clearly, if the camp price is still too high, then fundraising will be necessary. Even if some wards are able to fully fund it by gutting other activities doesn't mean that the camp cost isn't excessive.

I find mlh78's statement that they charge to just cover the food an interesting take on the situation.

The "Right" cost for a scout camp is the cost the camp charges, plus whatever you need for incidental expenses that aren't included in the camp fee. Institutional experience or not, the cost is set by an outside party. I suppose the troop could shop around and check out the costs of a variety of camps, but ultimately, the cost is what it is. It's like asking what the right cost for paper is, or the right cost for toner. If mlh's stake intends to fully fund camps, minus the amount it's asking participants to pay, the stake would need to verify that its budget could accommodate that. I'm not sure how the stake would handle a unit going to a different camp with a different cost. If the price went up, so would the amount the stake would need to allocate to it.

But that money has to come from somewhere. If it comes from the stake, that's less money that can be used for ward/stake expenses. If it comes from the participants / fundraising because the stewards of those funds have determined they are insufficient to pay for the camp, the stake/wards can use the funds it saved for other purposes. Seems to me like that's the call of those who are called to be the stewards over the funds. Can a good, solid youth program run on a lean budget? Sure. Can it run on vapors? Not without doing serious damage to the program, or resulting in leaders funding it out of their own pockets. There are expenses that occur even without doing extravagant things to entertain the youth.

I'll tell you right now, $275 is on the cheap end of camps. And I can't think of any high adventure camps that can be had for $70. If your wards are able to successfully pull off quality high adventures for that amount, I take my hat off to them.

[russellhltn]

The "Right" cost for a scout camp is the cost the camp charges, plus whatever you need for incidental expenses that aren't included in the camp fee.

That's pretty open-ended. I know of people who are in a financial bind, not because they spend lavishly on silly things, but because they are spending more then they can afford.

It's like asking what the right cost for paper is, or the right cost for toner.

I think there's a lot more competition to keep those prices down. That's not to say that a ward can't go crazy and run up excessive costs by printing a lot.

I'll tell you right now, $275 is on the cheap end of camps.

But for the price of one or two youth to a camp, I could throw a dance for the whole stake - even a multi-stake dance for the YSA.

Bottom line, given the "accepted" costs of a camp, I wouldn't consider a unit as being deficient in their financing if they're unable to foot the whole bill. If they did, I'd wonder what program is suffering to make it happen.

[Gary_Miller]

The "Right" cost for a scout camp is the cost the camp charges, plus whatever you need for incidental expenses that aren't included in the camp fee.

That's pretty open-ended. I know of people who are in a financial bind, not because they spend lavishly on silly things, but because they are spending more then they can afford.

I don't think its open ended at. If your going to attend a BSA council camp the cost is set by council BOD. How the cost is funded is limited to the Handbook guidelines on funding activities.

I'll tell you right now, $275 is on the cheap end of camps.

But for the price of one or two youth to a camp, I could throw a dance for the whole stake - even a multi-stake dance for the YSA.

But the program is to have a Scouting and YW Program. While dances are nice to have they should not be the priority when it comes to funding youth programs.

Bottom line, given the "accepted" costs of a camp, I wouldn't consider a unit as being deficient in their financing if they're unable to foot the whole bill. If they did, I'd wonder what program is suffering to make it happen.

When a unit can't foot the whole bill for their youth programs, including camps, shows a lack in judgement of what is most important. Building the testimonies of the youth is the most important thing we can do in out local units. The home and then the ward is the most effective places for building and maintaining that testimony. The youth activity programs are what keep the youth coming back to church on Sundays. There is no better place to put the funds than in strengthening our youth programs.

[russellhltn]

Bottom line, given the "accepted" costs of a camp, I wouldn't consider a unit as being deficient in their financing if they're unable to foot the whole bill. If they did, I'd wonder what program is suffering to make it happen.

When a unit can't foot the whole bill for their youth programs, including camps, shows a lack in judgement of what is most important.

I beg to differ. I also think it's not our place to pass that kind of judgement.

Building the testimonies of the youth is the most important thing we can do in out local units.

Important, yes. But when people say something is "most important" I keep remembering the talk about the hobby key.

The home and then the ward is the most effective places for building and maintaining that testimony. The youth activity programs are what keep the youth coming back to church on Sundays. There is no better place to put the funds than in strengthening our youth programs.

I've seen similar impassioned pleas. Many times calling to prepare youth to receive the higher priesthood, to serve missions and to marry in the temple. There's just one problem. Youth don't do those things. They become Young Single Adults first. High school graduation and advancement to YSA is quite disruptive. If you don't have a functioning YSA program, you may see the work on the youth come undone.

Yes, youth are important. The level of leadership resources focused on the youth program makes it clear. But that doesn't allow the unit leaders to sacrifice the other needs in the unit - including that of the former youth.

[lajackson]

We all have the same Handbook, but units large and small, under stakes of various sizes and needs, all have different challenges when it comes to budgeting. I think we have outlined most of the options in this topic.

We have certainly covered the principles involved, and now leave the details to those priesthood leaders who hold the keys.

So, thank you to everyone for your contributions to this topic. The discussion has run its course and this topic is now closed.