Wow. We have a real-live grammar debate. Good thing the Code of Conduct only prohibits legal, political, and religious debates.
TinMan wrote:The sentence includes two predicates. "consumer debt" and "other obligations" connected by the word "or" without any other punctuation, like a comma or a period. (contrary to what you say above.)
That's actually not contrary to what I said above. I wasn't talking about the actual punctuation, but rather I was talking about two different ways it could be
read. I think it's clear from various posts that people do indeed read it in those two different ways.
Those might be the two simple predicates, but determining what the complex predicates are requires us to agree on what the correct parsing is. There seem to be two different absolute positions; I can see it both ways. But (spoiler alert!) I do have a preference.
TinMan wrote:That means the two phrases could be reversed "...obligations or other consumer debt..." When you reverse them, does it mean the same thing as you are thinking? The "or" also means you could leave the second clause right out of the sentence "...consumer debt that results from..." or whatever the exact wording is.
Of course reversing those two phrases doesn't result in the same meaning. But I don't agree with the absolute rule you put forth that those two phrases are what can be reversed to preserve the original meaning. We basically have "A or B of type C". You say it can only mean "A or B" and the restriction "of Type C" applies to both A and B. Others say it can only mean "A" or "B of type C" where the restriction applies only to B and thus A stands alone, unrestricted.
I do tend to agree that your parsing is much more likely to be what was intended. But I have enough experience with the English language to know that parsing is not always as cut-and-dried as we might hope. It involves a writer and a reader, and in this case there is no English language arbiter (high school English teacher or anyone else) with authority to make the binding interpretation.
TinMan wrote:To mean what you want it to mean it would be better if written "...consumer debt, or other obligations..." And even then it is marginal because the focus of the sentence is what follows, "failed business or speculations."
I don't know why you think you know what I want it to mean. I'm pretty sure your assumption is exactly the opposite of the truth.
In any case, we don't get to change the wording. It is what it is.
TinMan wrote:To CLEARLY mean what you and Gary said above, there would actually have to be a period after "consumer debt."
I didn't take an absolute position. I merely said that I could see how it could be read two ways.