Signature exceptions for baptism consent form?!?

[JustinKRhodes]

New ward clerk here. We have a family preparing to baptize their 8 year old daughter of record. Form header states, "The Parent or legal guardian of the person being baptized must sign and date this form..."

Was told by former clerk currently serving as assistant, that because the child's father will be the one performing the ordinance, that the parental signature requirement is not applicable.

I am unable to find any policy in the handbook supporting this exception, nor any provision for exceptions on the form itself.

Can someone please provide some clarification for me? I'm guessing it's not a huge deal, but there was probably a trigger for this requirement. And If I'm questioned about it on an audit, I would like a better source than "I was told," to justify skipping the signature. Thanks!

[rmrichesjr]

The requirement was probably triggered by the GDPR and other privacy-related legal stuff from outside the Church. If no exception is listed in the handbook or in published instructions, it's pretty safe to conclude there is no exception.

[russellhltn]

General Handbook 38.2.8.2:

A minor, as defined by local laws, may be baptized when both of the following conditions are met:

The custodial parent(s) or legal guardian(s) give permission. They should understand the doctrine their child will be taught. They should also be willing to support the child in making and keeping the baptismal covenant. The person who conducts the baptism and confirmation interview asks for this permission to be in writing if he feels it will help prevent misunderstandings. In some locations, written permission is required. Mission and area leaders can provide guidance.

It's not really a solid answer. If it's documented in the records that father is doing the baptism, I'd think that would help. But I'd have a concern if the parents are separated as personally I'd interpret the language as requiring the approval of both (when present).

There's still a question of what local legal requirements might be. I'd check with the mission president. The mission routinely handles baptisms older than 8, so they should know.

There's also a question of what LCR might be requiring. If it forces you to upload a form, I'd think it needs to be signed since uploading a blank form would be pointless.

[Cmanrogers]

I think the above Handbook reference may become out of date soon because of some information in the new Preach My Gospel, chapter 12:

Do I need permission to baptize a minor?

The Church is concerned for the well-being of children and the harmony of their home environment. A minor, as defined by local laws, may be baptized when both of the following conditions are met: The custodial parent(s) or legal guardian(s) give written permission. They should have a general understanding of the doctrine their child will be taught as a member of the Church. They should also be willing to support the child in making and keeping the baptismal covenant.

Now this may only be referring to converts, but I wouldn't be surprised if in the next General Handbook update the policy is aligned. But until then it is still a grey area, and written permission may not be required.

[russellhltn]

Hopefully the resistance to written permission is only coming from the clerk. If there's any concern about approaching the parent(s) or guardian(s), then all the more reason to get it.

[JustinKRhodes]

There's also a question of what LCR might be requiring. If it forces you to upload a form, I'd think it needs to be signed since uploading a blank form would be pointless.

The previous clerk (now my assigned assistant) has been putting N/A in the form's parent signature field and uploading it like that whenever the father baptizes the child. He stated that the signature is not applicable when the father is the one performing baptism and confirmation. I'm in an awkward position of learning the duties of the calling from him while also being obligated to challenge his instructions as a seasoned church leader when they seem to contradict what's plainly stated in the form and LCR.

To clarify what I see, recording baptism and confirmation in LCR has 4 steps, each with their own page:
1. Baptism
2. Confirmation
3. Upload Consent Form
4. Edit & Summary

Step three requires the clerk to upload a consent form and will not allow the clerk to proceed to the last step and save the ordinance until one is uploaded. It has the following message:

"The member or legal guardian must first sign the Child Record Form and upload it to create their record."

Form says the following on the header:

"Complete this form when interviewing a member of record to be baptized and confirmed. The
parent or legal guardian of the person being baptized must sign and date this form. After the
ordinances have been performed, give the completed form to the clerk, who should use LCR to
record the ordinance information and print a certificate for the member. Keep the form on file until
after the next membership audit.

[russellhltn]

I'm in an awkward position of learning the duties of the calling from him

General Handbook 33.3.2.2 and 33.4.2 - your trainer is the stake clerk. The prior clerk is not mentioned. You might want to have a little chat with the stake.

When I was a ward clerk, that's how I handed issues that I didn't think were done properly.

[eblood66]

The previous clerk (now my assigned assistant) has been putting N/A in the form's parent signature field and uploading it like that whenever the father baptizes the child. He stated that the signature is not applicable when the father is the one performing baptism and confirmation.

I've been a clerk of one sort or another now for going on 15 years and I've never heard of such an exception. During that entire time the record form has required a signature and I always got a signature. The wording in LCR and on the form are quite clear. If there were an exception I don't know why it wouldn't be listed.

Now, I can understand that someone might feel that approval is implied by the fact that the father performed the baptism but given the clear wording on the form that isn't enough of a reason to me.

But russellhltn's advise to check with the stake clerk is good.

[garystroble]

Just get the signature on the form. I don't think the Church is interested in clerks trying to play attorney with prima facie evidence.

[JustinKRhodes]

Wonderful advice. Thank you all so much. I will be seeking out the Stake Clerk for basic training which I’ve yet to receive, along with clarification on this specific issue.