2 Adults needed for car travel to Stake Dances or other events?

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russellhltn
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Re: 2 Adults needed for car travel to Stake Dances or other events?

#21

Post by russellhltn »

General Handbook 20.7.7 convers travel.
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jgoggan
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Re: 2 Adults needed for car travel to Stake Dances or other events?

#22

Post by jgoggan »

russellhltn wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 8:55 pm General Handbook 20.7.7 convers travel.
While that is true, this is a non-answer that really doesn't answer the asked question at all, does it?

I always think these sort of "read the manual" answers are somewhat rude. Especially if they don't address the question being asked. That's why people are asking for help.

That section of the Handbook states that "parents or guardians must give written permission for their children to participate." It doesn't say at all what to do with those permission slips and whether or not a driver should be carrying them for the people in their vehicle.

It was a reasonable question that I don't think the Handbook addresses.

Note also that even the Handbook seems to indicate that that entire section is open to a bit of local interpretation! "Travel practices and the application of guidelines in this section should be consistent among units in the same area or coordinating council. Stake presidents may discuss and agree on travel practices during coordinating council meetings." Basically, it seems to indicate that what might be proper "travel practice" in one area or coordinating council might be different from those in another one -- and that Stake presidents should "discuss and agree" on what is right for their area.

That actually seems a bit surprising to me, but there it is.
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Re: 2 Adults needed for car travel to Stake Dances or other events?

#23

Post by jgoggan »

Erika2350 wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:53 pm Do we need to have the permission-slips in vehicles as they travel to a far activity? I am a girls camp leader and need to know if i need the drivers to have them as they drive the girls up to camp
In my OPINION, I don't think the drivers need them. I think permission is to be gathered, but I don't think the Handbook is clear at all on what needs to be done with those. I think if just you, as the Camp Leader, has them somewhere, then it should be fine. 👍

Basically, this is just a liability issue. The Church doesn't want anyone suing later and going "I had no idea my daughter was going somewhere for 4 days!" if there is a problem.

20.7.4 says that the "person who leads the activity" should have a permission slip for each participant. Again, as camp leader, my opinion says that is you. (Although I could see an argument that if they do specific "activities" at camp -- such as a high adventure, then the "person who leads the activity" could shift to that person and they should have the forms with them. But I don't think driving them to camp is enough to cause that shift.)
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terrysackett
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Re: 2 Adults needed for car travel to Stake Dances or other events?

#24

Post by terrysackett »

jgoggan wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:39 am
Erika2350 wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 5:53 pm Do we need to have the permission-slips in vehicles as they travel to a far activity? I am a girls camp leader and need to know if i need the drivers to have them as they drive the girls up to camp
20.7.4 says that the "person who leads the activity" should have a permission slip for each participant. Again, as camp leader, my opinion says that is you. (Although I could see an argument that if they do specific "activities" at camp -- such as a high adventure, then the "person who leads the activity" could shift to that person and they should have the forms with them. But I don't think driving them to camp is enough to cause that shift.)
I always keep the permission slips in the vehicle for each youth who is in that vehicle and when I’m the activity leader and we have the youth divided up into more than one vehicle, I have the other drivers do the same.
However, this brings up another point: how long do we keep the slips after the activity? I shred them within a day or two.
Terry Sackett
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russellhltn
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Re: 2 Adults needed for car travel to Stake Dances or other events?

#25

Post by russellhltn »

jgoggan wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:35 am While that is true, this is a non-answer that really doesn't answer the asked question at all, does it?
If it's not stated, then it's not a requirement coming down from "big church". The Handbook does state "Travel practices and the application of guidelines in this section should be consistent among units in the same area or coordinating council." so this may be a local requirement. In that case, the forum is unlikely to get an answer beyond "here's what we do".

The reason we point people to the Handbook is that is the authoritative answer (or non-answer). It's the local leaders (not us) who hold the keys to interpreting it (See section 0.4). We're just members of the church like you. The church already has too many people who think their opinions/interpretations are the "right way".

I'm not sure what the purpose is of having the slips with the driver. I can't say as I've ever heard of an activity where a driver was accused of kidnapping, or a child accused of being a runaway. As far as I know, it's just standard procedure to protect the organization when they go beyond normal activities. Handing them to the drivers risks losing them unless you go to the trouble of copying them.

Good question how long they should be kept. I'd be tempted to keep them on file in the bishop or clerks' office until any risk of a lawsuit has passed.
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jgoggan
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Re: 2 Adults needed for car travel to Stake Dances or other events?

#26

Post by jgoggan »

russellhltn wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 11:49 am I'm not sure what the purpose is of having the slips with the driver. I can't say as I've ever heard of an activity where a driver was accused of kidnapping, or a child accused of being a runaway. As far as I know, it's just standard procedure to protect the organization when they go beyond normal activities. Handing them to the drivers risks losing them unless you go to the trouble of copying them.
I agreed with that in my original post -- that I didn't think giving it to the drivers made sense. But now that someone else has mentioned that they do it, I thought about it some more and could see a reason: because the permission slip is also the medical release form. So, if an accident were to happen or someone was injured during travel, then I can see an argument for the drivers having them in case of emergency.

Again, I'm not convinced that is best -- but I can at least see a reason for doing so. Because, again, they aren't just permission slips for the trip -- they are "permission slips" for medical assistance too.
russellhltn
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Re: 2 Adults needed for car travel to Stake Dances or other events?

#27

Post by russellhltn »

jgoggan wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 2:37 pm if an accident were to happen or someone was injured during travel, then I can see an argument for the drivers having them in case of emergency.
A fair point. However, I'd still not want it to be the only copy. Not just to prevent it from being lost, but in the event of an accident with that car, the forms might not be obtainable "in the moment".
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mdigi
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Re: 2 Adults needed for car travel to Stake Dances or other events?

#28

Post by mdigi »

My first inclination also would have been to keep the release forms in the clerk's office (to protect against accidental loss/destruction during a serious accident)

Not being familiar with the form in GHB 20.7.4, I downloaded it to see what information was required. The instructions at the top of the form do state: "The event or activity leader should have access to all participants’ forms during the activity."

I learn something every day :)
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