Kindoo Access Control System

[BrianEdwards]

This makes sense when we remember that Wards and Stakes don't "own" the buildings. Wards and Stakes are tenants in buildings they are assigned to meet in.

This also aligns with my experience when requesting physical keys. YMMV (since not all Stakes and FM Groups are created alike), but the times that I was personally involved in requesting new keys, we went through the Stake HC who then sent the request on to the FM Group. And each time, there was "pushback" about the request. Objectively, I completely understand, since our answers of "well, even though last year we had enough keys, now we need 10 more because we don't know where 10 of our keys went", wasn't really satisfactory Just to say that my understanding is that the FM Group is technically the ones who provide the physical keys, not the stake. And their reluctance to automatically provide new keys has less to do with the economics (although certainly a factor), and more to do with their stewardship for maintaining building access and security.

It's hard to assess from the outside now, but I'd expect that the effort involved in getting things setup and maintained inside Kindoo, may be essentially the same as the combined effort required to manually create and maintain a master key list in each individual unit throughout a stake. And since some/many/most units do a lousy job of tracking all kinds of physical keys (anyone else have a couple of bags full of random keys in their clerk's office??), having this constrained system hopefully enforces better management of building outer access. Yes each unit will still track inside keys, but hopefully that's much easier once the outer access is solely via Kindoo, and tightly connected to current member callings.

[greenwoodkl]

Currently the system that is used to synchronize the callings is only available to FMs as that is their tool to also administer Kindoo, setup sites, and purchase licenses.

This makes sense when we remember that Wards and Stakes don't "own" the buildings. Wards and Stakes are tenants in buildings they are assigned to meet in. I have seen many cases were units were moved to another building for their meetings (for various reasons - sometimes temporary and sometimes permanent).

The units don't own the buildings, but if the cost/pain/friction of meetinghouse usage grows enough, members as tenants may stop using the same buildings that were built to support their activities. A new take on home-centered, church-supported by making the meetinghouses less usable and accessible. From an "outside" perspective not privy to the project and security discussions, it seems the largest fixed cost is the hardware installation at the doors. The members shoulder the cost of owning and maintaining an app-compatible smartphone. The variable cost seems to be whatever price per license was arranged between the Church and the vendor. That variable cost should in theory be set sufficiently to cover the cost to maintain the software, the network, handling the communication between the phone apps and the door, plus whatever markup for the vendor to be profitable. It would seem to be a negligible difference for the technology to support 20 or 400 or more authorized users at a building even as we wrestle over the arbitrary license limits established.

[rknelson]

If we were to choose to have auto sync turned off for any or all callings that are currently enabled, would turning off the auto sync between Kindoo and LCR automatically delete those callings/users out of Kindoo, or would they remain in Kindoo for manual management?

Existing users would stay. Sentry software license add/deletes are triggered by a change of calling in LCR.

[swigginton]

Currently the system that is used to synchronize the callings is only available to FMs as that is their tool to also administer Kindoo, setup sites, and purchase licenses.

This makes sense when we remember that Wards and Stakes don't "own" the buildings. Wards and Stakes are tenants in buildings they are assigned to meet in. I have seen many cases were units were moved to another building for their meetings (for various reasons - sometimes temporary and sometimes permanent).

While Wards/Stake don't own the buildings, stake presidencies have the ecclesiastical authority to determine who gets access to their buildings. The FM organization facilitates that access through hard keys, electronic access systems, etc. That's why Sentry should be the resource for the overall configuration of Kindoo by the FM group, but LCR should be the resource to configure who has access and should be managed at the stake level.

[ELHawkes]

If we were to choose to have auto sync turned off for any or all callings that are currently enabled, would turning off the auto sync between Kindoo and LCR automatically delete those callings/users out of Kindoo, or would they remain in Kindoo for manual management?

Existing users would stay. Sentry software license add/deletes are triggered by a change of calling in LCR.

Thank you, that is good to know.
Maybe that can also be added to the wiki instructions for a little more clarification.

[ELHawkes]

Currently the system that is used to synchronize the callings is only available to FMs as that is their tool to also administer Kindoo, setup sites, and purchase licenses.

This makes sense when we remember that Wards and Stakes don't "own" the buildings. Wards and Stakes are tenants in buildings they are assigned to meet in. I have seen many cases were units were moved to another building for their meetings (for various reasons - sometimes temporary and sometimes permanent).

The units don't own the buildings, but if the cost/pain/friction of meetinghouse usage grows enough, members as tenants may stop using the same buildings that were built to support their activities. A new take on home-centered, church-supported by making the meetinghouses less usable and accessible. From an "outside" perspective not privy to the project and security discussions, it seems the largest fixed cost is the hardware installation at the doors. The members shoulder the cost of owning and maintaining an app-compatible smartphone. The variable cost seems to be whatever price per license was arranged between the Church and the vendor. That variable cost should in theory be set sufficiently to cover the cost to maintain the software, the network, handling the communication between the phone apps and the door, plus whatever markup for the vendor to be profitable. It would seem to be a negligible difference for the technology to support 20 or 400 or more authorized users at a building even as we wrestle over the arbitrary license limits established.

This makes sense when we remember that Wards and Stakes don't "own" the buildings. Wards and Stakes are tenants in buildings they are assigned to meet in.

This also aligns with my experience when requesting physical keys. YMMV (since not all Stakes and FM Groups are created alike), but the times that I was personally involved in requesting new keys, we went through the Stake HC who then sent the request on to the FM Group.

Whether a calling is Synchronized with LCR or not, is not the same as requesting additional physical keys.
The number of Licences/(Keys in previous terms), has already been allocated to the Stake, 50 for the Stake and 20 for each ward.
There are two methods of assigning a licence to a member which are, Synchronization between LCR and Kindoo, or manual assignment of the Licences by the Stake Kindoo manager for a user.
The ability for the Stake to choose which callings are Synced with LCR to get a licence, should not need to be done by having to go to the FM to do it, It's simply a choice made by the Stake, so the Stake Kindoo manager should be able to manage which callings are synced directly.

[martelldansie]

I also would like to note my disappointment in the fact that we are going away from FOBs.

FOBs have many of the same problems as keys. They have to be tracked. They can also be swiped or loaned out inappropriately. During one of the safety briefings we've had, we were told about the wayward child of a released church leader who got their hands on dad's keys and trashed the meetinghouse. Dad still had the keys because no one wanted to take the keys back from the released leader. With the Kindoo system, the son would have to take the phone. And once released, a leader's access is revoked automatically. Given the ongoing cost of Kindoo, I'm sure the leaders weighed the options, but valued the security and linking to one's calling other more common methods.

It may be a step back in user convivence, but a step up in security.

FOBs that rely on simple RFID or NFC can also be easily duplicated/cloned to other devices. The Kindoo app connects to the internet to authenticate with a rotating code that changes frequently, making it much harder to clone (if I'm understanding the technology correctly).

I would think if the church is trying to increase the security of the buildings (I almost said "our" buildings, but would have been corrected) that all exterior doors would have some sort of auto locking feature. Thus the buildings would be more secure after activities. I have performed building lockup and sometimes I have found the building unlocked on a Monday night when there shouldn't have been anything in the building since Sunday. I still think members securing the "church's buildings" is a good think.

The member's really do have a sense of ownership when the meet in a building weekly and help clean the buildings and clear the snow. It is sad that it is being acknowledged in such a way that may alienate some members from wanting to even go to the buildings. I am glad this isn't a public forum because that would probably be a hot topic. Central governance of the church is powerful and amazing and is definitely a house of "order" and the Lord's Way. Not complaining just concerned about the message that is being sent. Many old members were in the church when we had to raise funds to build "our" local meeting houses. Thanks for listening.

[russellhltn]

I would think if the church is trying to increase the security of the buildings (I almost said "our" buildings, but would have been corrected) that all exterior doors would have some sort of auto locking feature.

Good point. Kindoo might address that.

Thus the buildings would be more secure after activities. I have performed building lockup and sometimes I have found the building unlocked on a Monday night when there shouldn't have been anything in the building since Sunday.

I've walked into a gym with the lights on, A/C running, and an open package of cookies on a chair - and no one around. I suspected it was the handiwork of the missionaries having a P day.

I am glad this isn't a public forum because that would probably be a hot topic.

This is a public forum. No login is required to read, and Google searches sometimes points to messages on here.

[ELHawkes]

Do Temp users get automatically deleted?
This is what the wiki instructions say, but isn't fully clear if they are automatically deleted of if it has to be done manually.

9. Toggle the field "Temporary user" if the person's access should expire after a certain date. Complete the section specifying when their rights should be activated and expire. Note that the individual will still use a user seat until their access expires and they are removed from the system.

https://tech.churchofjesuschrist.org/wi ... _to_Kindoo

[rknelson]

Do Temp users get automatically deleted?
This is what the wiki instructions say, but isn't fully clear if they are automatically deleted of if it has to be done manually.

Yes, temporary users are automatically deleted the second the expiration date and time occur. The license then returns to the pool of available licenses.