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Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 11:32 pm
by jdlessley
jsfriedman wrote:I have been "fighting" for months with my local facilities group to try to get an outlet installed so I can install a WAP in our Stake Center cultural hall and in the back hallway. We already have Internet and wireless in our FHC and Stake Clerk's office. First they did not like the location of the outlet because it would be external. Then they refused saying Internet was not approved in meetinghouses outside the FHC - after which I sent them the 2/28 policy letter. Now since they learned it was for a WAP- they say wireless Internet has not been approved. A policy letter that specifically mentions that "wireless" Internet is also approved might help me get through this quagmire.
As far as any policy for wireless access you can read the wireless access policy for meetinghouse? thread in this forum.

You should also take a look at the Introduction to Meetinghouse Internetpage in the Clerk and Technology Supportsite. It provides meetinghouse internet implementation guidance and references to applicable policy letters and documents. (I know. It doesn't help resolve the need for a policy letter.)

I recommend you read the policy letters and other applicable documentation as well applicable threads in this forum. Once you have a good understanding of policies, procedures, and appropriate information from the forums, discuss with the stake president the stake internet access plan. Take the applicable documents with you in your council with the stake president. Once you have the stake president's desires you can approach the FM group to discuss installing the hardware. Keep in mind that the FM group is interested in safety, building esthetics, and structural soundness of the building. Placing any hardware in hallways, corridors, classrooms and the such visible to the general membership will in all likelyhood not be approved.

I know that dealing with the FM group people in many places can be difficult. Personalities definitely come into play. I was able to turn around what I would call a quite difficult and imovable director by sitting down with him face to face and explaining what we really needed and the background for that need. I used Church policy letters and other documents to help him understand. He now works with me quite eagerly such that now he even makes recommedations to improve original concepts and plans. Of course there was a two way education process that went on during that turnaround meeting. I now have a better understanding of facilities (building) management in the Church.

Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 2:13 am
by russellhltn
jsfriedman wrote:I have been "fighting" for months with my local facilities group to try to get an outlet installed so I can install a WAP in our Stake Center cultural hall and in the back hallway.
Is PoE (Power over Ethernet) a possibility? That would eliminate the need for a outlet by the WAP. You may need to move away from models found in the local office store, but it's possible.

Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:59 pm
by russellhltn
Mikerowaved wrote:2. Most small buildings like ours in the US have a split-phase AC supply and as far as I know, this technology is good only on ONE phase at a time. So if you're trying to bridge between two or more points, they would all have to be wired on the same AC phase. (This can be tested before hand.)
This may not be a problem. See Powerline Communications Cross-phase Coupling

As far as security, it appears to be protected by a 56bit DES encryption. The key is called the "network name".

The more I think about it, the better this is sounding for our stake center. We have a "open air" construction where we have separate buildings rather then everything contained in a single building. That creates challenges in getting wire from one to another. I'm not sure if we can share the existing telephone wiring or satellite cable system. I'm sure we're not about to start digging trenches in the yard. Since our power runs in conduits, the potential for interference between radio operator and the network is probably minimal.

Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:04 pm
by Mikerowaved
I've read quite a few test results around the I'net, posted from people using HomePlug devices and it seems the results vary quite a bit. Some get fairly good performance, others marginal to poor. Some can use devices on either phase without problems while others can only operate on the same phase. The only conclusion I can draw is, it's worth a try, but just make sure you have a good return policy. ;)

Just a little experience with powerline network

Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:14 am
by jdlessley
As a temporary solution (wireless does not work) to connecting our stake clerk computer to the FHC internet connection I installed the Netgear XE102 Wall-Plugged Ethernet Bridge which is a powerline or HomePlug system. We already had this when I was called as the STS. It was probably purchased in 2004 or even earlier. My only experience with it before using it with our stake clerk computer was as a method of getting connectivity in the cultural hall for non-Sunday training events where internet access was needed. Over time the building has been upgraded enough times such that the three phases of power to the building have been used to create three circuits from three separate breaker boxes (explained to me by the FM Group director). For our building the Netgear XE102 will only function if both units of the system are on the same circuit. One side of the cultural hall is on one circuit and the other side is on another circuit. If we do not choose the correct electrical outlet to plug the wall unit into in the cultural hall the system does not work.

Another problem we have with the Netgear system is poor reliability in getting a complete connection (system says it is connected and computer says the network is up but no communications packets pass over the network). At these times the system must be reset by unplugging one of the wall outlet units and replugging it (essentially rebooting it).

What's the max distance for HomePlug?

Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:05 am
by jdlessley
After I made my last post to this thread it occurred to me to check the maximum distance for HomePlug networks. Since the IEEE 802.3 standard for 10/100BaseT networks maximum distance is 100 meters I wanted to know what the maximum was for HomePlug. I found that HomePlug 1.0 and HomePlug AV (also known as HomePlug 2.0) are marketed at 200 meters. That is annotated with remarks about ideal conditions reaching distances beyond that and less than optimum condition distances well under that. So the real answer is you won't know until you run a test. Some manufactures of HomePlug AV devices provide testers that come in the network kits. I found no such testing equipment available for the little research I did for HomePlug 1.0 systems. I'm guessing that separate testers could probably be purchased.

I suspect that in our stake center the reason we cannot get a network connection across building electrical circuits on the Netgear system is that it is an early HomePlug 1.0 system with distances between nodes at or beyond the limits and the low quality of conditions from the interferring systems opperating on the electrical lines. Based on what I read the low quality conditions of the electrical lines could account also for the unreliable connections we experience for the connections on the same circuit.

Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:40 am
by russellhltn
I'm sure another factor in poor connectivity of the home plug is any noise on the lines. Noisy devices come in all shapes and sizes.

Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:09 am
by russellhltn
Well, I had to try. I picked up a Netgear XE102G (a pair of XE102) at a local chain store and gave it a shot. I discovered that the power strip near the modem/PIX made a huge difference. Now I knew better then to try and run the Homeplug though the power strip, but just having the power strip plugged into the same outlet made a big difference.

I tried several outlets around the FHC and saw levels that indicated that it should work fine. (once I unplugged that power strip by the modem). But outside the building I couldn't get a link at all. Even though I'm sure all the buildings are fed off the same transformer. So for my needs it was a bust. Still, it may be a useful tool to get though a impenetrable wall or deal with trying to run wires around a room.

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 3:49 pm
by jkarras-p40
Just wondering if the two buildings you are trying to connect have a phone line running between the two. If they do you could use some LRE (long range ethernet) devices with out much trouble.

Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:19 pm
by russellhltn
jkarras wrote:Just wondering if the two buildings you are trying to connect have a phone line running between the two. If they do you could use some LRE (long range ethernet) devices with out much trouble.
Hmmm. That might be a possibility. Do you know of a source at a reasonable price? The one I found cost $660 for 2.3Mbps.