Comments in Church's HT/VT Application

Discussions around miscellaneous technologies and projects for the general membership.
lajackson
Community Moderators
Posts: 10359
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: US

#21

Post by lajackson »

mkmurray wrote:I think I agree with you that a more extensive exploration of the proposed feature (and secondary options) could help find an acceptable legal solution.
Especially if the e-mail feature is actually a pass-through option where the message is not stored.
russellhltn
Community Administrator
Posts: 31316
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:53 pm
Location: U.S.

#22

Post by russellhltn »

lajackson wrote:Especially if the e-mail feature is actually a pass-through option where the message is not stored.
Oh, you'd be surprised. I once worked on a case to recover AOL IM messages. The user didn't save them. And yet I recovered usable fragments from the hard drive. Between virtual memory, pre-paging, how deletions are handled, how new disk blocks are assigned and slack space, there's whole bunch of stuff lying around.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
User avatar
WelchTC
Senior Member
Posts: 2085
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:51 am
Location: Kaysville, UT, USA
Contact:

#23

Post by WelchTC »

It is unfortunate that some feel that if comments or customizable types are not allowed, a large percentage of the application is lost. I do disagree, however, as currently there are not a lot of other options. MLS does not provide an easy means to create and manage districts and also limits one person to use the computer at a time and only form the ward house. Having an online offering will be a much needed improvement.

Please understand that this was not a light decision. These topics have been discussed and will continue to be discussed but we must respect the decision of the Church on comments and customizable types, otherwise the project will not be approved.

As far as the comments field, it is a legal issue. As far as the customizable visit types, that is more a policy issue. Until the Church officially weighs in on what constitutes a visit, different that what is already set, we have to follow the existing policies.

Tom
lajackson
Community Moderators
Posts: 10359
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: US

#24

Post by lajackson »

RussellHltn wrote:Oh, you'd be surprised. . . . there's whole bunch of stuff lying around.
I am well aware of that and did not factor it into my response. Of course, the legal beagles probably did.

Electronic media rule #1: "Never post anything that you would not want to see on a billboard as you drive to work tomorrow." This rule follows right after the two previous rules, "the camera never blinks", and "the microphone is always hot". You can probably figure out from those two rules where I have spend a lot of my time as I decided what I wanted to be when I grew up.

I have seen folks go to prison for stuff they were absolutely certain had been wiped from their hard drives.

As for RAR, I think technology is a wonderful thing, and that we should use it as much as they will allow us to use it. Since, as I understand it, comments flow through RAR to the recipient (notwithstanding the fact that they are captured just as is any other e-mail in the world), I would think that the legal liability would be different than if a repository was being kept.

In the meantime, while folks get a handle on the implications and operations of the program, there will be some very thoughtful movements and decisions that will always be designed to protect the Church. As Tom said, we need to honor those, along with the folks who are making them, and work within the constraints that are given.

On the other hand, I know from personal experience over nearly 40 years of church service that the surest way to improve the quality of home teaching is to hold eye-to-eye stewardship interviews each month between every priesthood leader and home teacher. If RAR helps that in any way at all, go for it.
russellhltn
Community Administrator
Posts: 31316
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:53 pm
Location: U.S.

#25

Post by russellhltn »

lajackson wrote:the surest way to improve the quality of home teaching is to hold eye-to-eye stewardship interviews each month between every priesthood leader and home teacher.
Agreed.

But note that is oral communication away from cameras, microphones or any kind of storage medium. But RAR is a form of written communication. I think you can appreciate the difference. ;)

Again, our written forms do nothing to encourage the gathering of anything more than visit history. I kinda get the feeling this battle has been fought before. We just weren't there to see it.

Now, getting back to the eye-to-eye, the biggest problem I've had with that is trying to schedule a time when that can happen. Is there something we can add to the nRAR (new RAR) that will help make routine interviews happen? Like tracking interview "visits" and sign-up sheets?
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
User avatar
brado426
Member
Posts: 313
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:50 pm
Location: Foothill Ranch, CA
Contact:

#26

Post by brado426 »

RussellHltn wrote:Agreed.

But note that is oral communication away from cameras, microphones or any kind of storage medium. But RAR is a form of written communication. I think you can appreciate the difference. ;)

Again, our written forms do nothing to encourage the gathering of anything more than visit history. I kinda get the feeling this battle has been fought before. We just weren't there to see it.

Now, getting back to the eye-to-eye, the biggest problem I've had with that is trying to schedule a time when that can happen. Is there something we can add to the nRAR (new RAR) that will help make routine interviews happen? Like tracking interview "visits" and sign-up sheets?

No communication in RAR was ever intended to replace or minimize PPI's. In fact, every time a teacher reports, he or she has the ability to schedule a meeting with the Presidency if he or she has anything that needs to be discussed. The Comments are more for things like, "My phone number has changed to..." or "This person is moved...." or "I will be sure to get it done next month." Not only do these comments assist the Presidency members to help them know what is going on, but it helps the teacher that is reporting feel far more connected to the HT/VT effort.

The new Event Scheduler that I added in November and have been expanding on over the past few months is really cool for scheduling PPI's. Every time a teacher reports, he or she first sees a list of all the group's events and timeslots for each event. The teacher can then sign up by simply clicking on the checkbox next to the timeslot. The Event Scheduler also includes a fairly elaborate Email notification process as events are changed and group members sign-up for and opt-out of events.

Brad O.
russellhltn
Community Administrator
Posts: 31316
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:53 pm
Location: U.S.

#27

Post by russellhltn »

Brad O. wrote:"My phone number has changed to..." or "This person is moved...."
That might fly. I think it would be worth asking legal.
Have you searched the Help Center? Try doing a Google search and adding "site:churchofjesuschrist.org/help" to the search criteria.

So we can better help you, please edit your Profile to include your general location.
User avatar
brado426
Member
Posts: 313
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:50 pm
Location: Foothill Ranch, CA
Contact:

#28

Post by brado426 »

tomw wrote:
As far as the comments field, it is a legal issue. As far as the customizable visit types, that is more a policy issue. Until the Church officially weighs in on what constitutes a visit, different that what is already set, we have to follow the existing policies.

Tom

Thoughout the Church, people have different ideas as to what constitutes a visit. I thought we discussed this before and it was determined that a certain amount of flexibility was given to allow the leaders to do the right thing? This is certainly how the HT/VT program works now... in fact, there is nothing to prevent leaders from counting results as they see fit. If anything, customizable contact types provide a way for leaders to count statistics more accurately based upon whatever policy the Church provides.

Customizable contact types are not provided to allow groups to fake their Home/Visiting teaching results or anything like that. They are provided because each group is different and may desire to monitor different things about their teaching statistics. For example, one Elders Quorum I worked with is in an area where apartment complexes make up a majority of the ward, so turnover is high. It is very important for them to have a "Family Moved" option, while this option would not be so important for others. As we discussed before, I think leaders should be given the tools that they need to do the job and guidelines on how to use those tools. I don't think we should be purposefully making inflexible tools because we're afraid people aren't going to use them properly.

This system absolutely needs comments and customizable contact types. I would encourage anyone who thinks otherwise to talk to any Presidency that is using RAR and find out for themselves. These features are important and worth fighting for.

Brad O.
User avatar
mkmurray
Senior Member
Posts: 3233
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:56 pm
Location: Utah
Contact:

#29

Post by mkmurray »

Brad O. wrote:This system absolutely needs comments and customizable contact types. I would encourage anyone who thinks otherwise to talk to any Presidency that is using RAR and find out for themselves. These features are important and worth fighting for.
Ok, I can see your argument that this would be a terrific feature for the Community Developed project. I actually agree with you and am willing to defend this feature as well.

However, does this feature "absolutely" have to make it into version 1? Will the application be useless to a majority of Church units if this feature is missing for a little while? Sure, I'd love to see this added back into version 1, but I'm also okay with a decision from Church employees that they would like to focus on other features first in version 1.

I realize this would be a downgrade for current RAR users, but just the idea of this system is an upgrade for a huge majority of Church units. I would prefer to get something simple and useable out sooner rather than later. My goal would then be to improve upon it with lessons learned from RAR with subsequent versions shortly thereafter.
Many questions are already answered on the Tech Wiki. Check it out!
User avatar
brado426
Member
Posts: 313
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 9:50 pm
Location: Foothill Ranch, CA
Contact:

#30

Post by brado426 »

mkmurray wrote:Ok, I can see your argument that this would be a terrific feature for the Community Developed project. I actually agree with you and am willing to defend this feature as well.

However, does this feature "absolutely" have to make it into version 1? Will the application be useless to a majority of Church units if this feature is missing for a little while? Sure, I'd love to see this added back into version 1, but I'm also okay with a decision from Church employees that they would like to focus on other features first in version 1.

I realize this would be a downgrade for current RAR users, but just the idea of this system is an upgrade for a huge majority of Church units. I would prefer to get something simple and useable out sooner rather than later. My goal would then be to improve upon it with lessons learned from RAR with subsequent versions shortly thereafter.

Fair enough.. I'll try not to whine about it anymore.... but I think these are basic features that are important for version 1. There are plenty of good features that I do not think are necessary for version 1. My concern is that if these features do not make it into version 1, they won't be seen for many, many years after version 1 is released.

Brad O.
Post Reply

Return to “Other Member Technologies”