HD Video Distribution in New Meetinghouses

Discussions around receiving, originating, and holding Church broadcasts and conferences in meetinghouses including schedules, setup, equipment, and support.
mevans
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Re: HD Video Distribution in New Meetinghouses

Postby mevans » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:01 am

russellhltn wrote:
mevans wrote:We currently have 5 modulators. I wonder how we'll distribute languages to different rooms.

I guess that would depend on if the audio is distributed via the HDMI or some other way. Except for ASL, I think it's all the same video.

Yes, ASL is different video. Also the chapel camera is different video.

Audio is a good question. I hope it's coming over HDMI.

Many years ago I went to a nearby stake to help them solve satellite problems between conference sessions. If I remember correctly, at that time, that stake had a button panel where they selected the audio feed for each room's ceiling speaker and they didn't have modulators for each language, so it's possible they'll do a panel like that for choosing the HDMI feed to each room.

Historical musings I vaguely remember an a/v remodel we had in the early 1990s and I think the church wasn't into modulators at that time and we had to push to get modulators for the languages, as someone at the church didn't think modulators were a good idea. I think our stake's original satellite system was installed in the early 1980s by the stake before the rise of the FM group. Whoever installed that used modulators. We had done some enhancements, including adding a BNC patch panel. I was sad to see all the BNC connectors lose out to F connectors with church standardization, although I did take a liking to the AVS-1 control panel they installed. We actually hung onto that panel through a subsequent remodel. Even though it had been discontinued, when we asked the a/v architect about it, he said he liked that panel and would leave it in.

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johnshaw
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Re: HD Video Distribution in New Meetinghouses

Postby johnshaw » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:42 am

mevans wrote:Thanks for the info, johnshaw. Was there any explanation as to why they didn't upgrade the rest of the rooms? The building where I saw it done did get HDMI in the other rooms (using the Extron cat 6 connection someone referenced above).


This is one of the bigger problems when an STS --> HC --> FM --> Contractor is the process. When the HC and I walked through the issues with the CCTV we understood that it would be a focus of the work.

mevans wrote:Did they install HDMI out in the chapel for the projector for satellite broadcasts?


Yes for my install there is an input and and output at the podium.

There was NO change to audio Distribution or for that matter video distribution from the Cabinet to the rest of the building.
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mevans
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Re: HD Video Distribution in New Meetinghouses

Postby mevans » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:50 pm

They just started the A/V remodel in our stake center. I'll try to report back on what they ended up doing.

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johnshaw
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Re: HD Video Distribution in New Meetinghouses

Postby johnshaw » Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:49 am

I wanted to report back on our system after doing some testing.

Input1 - mounted Camera in the Chapel (camera was upgraded) comes through to the teradek as 720p60
Input2- Podium (there is an HDMI + 3.5m audio input plate)
Input3- Overflow (there is an HDMI + 3.5m audio input plate) - This was done a my request - I don't know if this is normal for them
Input4 - Sattelite
Input2,3,4 - require the satellite override to be pushed at the podium to hear the sound in the chapel and the rest of the meetinghouse.

Output1 - TV mounted at the cabinet (7 inch - analog) - Input2,3,4 all have audio/video Input1 currently has only the video of the Camera. I have since asked them to tie in the audio, as I was speaking to them they said, well, the chapel system is ported to the library, so they figure I could use the library sound to 'hear' what's going on in the chapel. I told them that I needed the audio to validate that audio/video is going to the Teradek - only way to troubleshoot when a webcast has 'no audio' - first thing I need to do is hear it at the monitor @ the cabinet to double-check.
Output2 - Teradek HDMI (for video) and chapel audio (analog) line in like it was before.

Input2 and Input3 are HDMI over Ethernet, however, the Ethernet plugs directly into the Extron which (I validated with the contractor) has internal mechanisms to translate Ethernet back to HDMI) means that I can't grab that HDMI signal to put into a mixer to do multiple cameras for my webcast, or at least I haven't figured out how to do that without incurring more hardware cost. I was hoping there would be EthernettoHDMI in my cabinet I could snag 'before' going into the building system, taking it into a switch, then putting it back into the system like I used to with the RCA/Analog system it replaced. I'm stuck using their switcher which can detract from the meeting when switching between two inputs. I'll play with it more, but at this point I'm not seeing signal into my teradek so I'm working on at least a single signal right now.
“A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom.”

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johnshaw
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Re: HD Video Distribution in New Meetinghouses

Postby johnshaw » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:25 am

Just a quick update. It appears that what we got was not an HDMI upgrade to the Meetinghouse, but a partial upgrade based on what they could do within the budget. I just wanted to be clear because some have talked about different installs in this thread.
“A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom.”

― Thomas Paine, Common Sense

mevans
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Re: HD Video Distribution in New Meetinghouses

Postby mevans » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:55 pm

johnshaw wrote:Input2 and Input3 are HDMI over Ethernet, however, the Ethernet plugs directly into the Extron which...means that I can't grab that HDMI signal to put into a mixer to do multiple cameras for my webcast.


Our upgrade is mostly complete, but there are some lingering issues, so I haven't posted about it yet. We, too, have the Extron switcher. We didn't have a multiple camera setup, but my brother's stake does have one. They have a video mixer and something like 5 remote-controlled cameras (local creativity...I'm sure not funded by the FM group). If I'm ever over there again when they have it set up, I'll have to check out their equipment and see what they did, now that I'm more familiar with what the FM group installs. I'm guessing they ran their own HDMI over Cat 5 lines, along with the remote control lines for the cameras. They had several people on their crew. A couple of them gave me a quick tour when I was there.

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Re: HD Video Distribution in New Meetinghouses

Postby fran4383 » Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:36 am

I just finished broadcasting stake conference this last weekend, after receiving the STS calling about 4 weeks ago. It was an intense 4 weeks as I was trying to bring about major changes away from the horribly yellow, grainy, and stretched D70 images in place, with loud broadcast buzz, to a good experience. I ended having a friend donate a Hikvision PTZ IP camera which delivered excellent quality. I used vMix to bring in the IP camera feed, and a usb HDMI capture device to bring in the feed from the old D70 (which I used only while moving around the nice PTZ cam). As others have said, vMix allows any length of audio or video input delay, so I synced everything up to the lowest common denominator which was the IP camera. Also, I don't trust the Teradek, I think mine's got issues and FM is thinking about replacement. I just used vMix to encode and upload the stream. I used an hdmi to composite converter to then backfeed the output to the old ghetto modulators for the rostrum to see the feed and for RS room. That image was super lousy for that in-building distribution on the analog coax, but that wasn't a big deal. For the laptop at the rostrum if they want to show a powerpoint, I put an NDI client on the laptop to bring that feed into my laptop running vMix as well, so I could do some PIP - worked great. Broadcast went great, but here's my problem:

The Hikvision IP introduces about 300ms of delay. vMix wants to add to that a 300ms buffer, which I can get rid of at the risk of losing picture consistency. Stake presidency wants two projectors in the gym, relaying the same stream I'm broadcasting. With a 700ms total delay, that's too much for gym projectors when the real event is visible in the same line of sight. I think 150ms would probably be OK. I assume the NDI PTZ cameras also have at least 300ms of delay? This would not work for gym projectors. Any thoughts? What kind of delay have you experienced with NDI PTZ cameras, just in the camera processing/encoding to NDI?

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Mikerowaved
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Re: HD Video Distribution in New Meetinghouses

Postby Mikerowaved » Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:56 am

fran4383 wrote:The Hikvision IP introduces about 300ms of delay.

This is already too much lag for gym projection. 100-150ms total delay can be tolerated. Under 100ms is ideal.

fran4383 wrote:vMix wants to add to that a 300ms buffer, which I can get rid of at the risk of losing picture consistency.

I'm not sure that 300ms plays a part in local viewing. Yes, it will add a bit more latency to the streaming video, but that's of no real concern since they're already lagging behind "real time" by 30-180 seconds anyway. I believe vMix bypasses the streaming buffer for an output to a spare HDMI port on your graphics card, like I think you're doing now. Still, vMix will add a minimum of 2-3 frames for capturing/processing/outputting. (This is similar to Wirecast, which I use.) BTW, 2-3 frames at 30fps is 67-100ms leaving hardly any wiggle room for anything else. However, 2-3 frames at 60fps is half of that, or 33-50ms.

fran4383 wrote:Stake presidency wants two projectors in the gym, relaying the same stream I'm broadcasting. With a 700ms total delay, that's too much for gym projectors when the real event is visible in the same line of sight. I think 150ms would probably be OK.

Yeah, you can squeak by on 150ms. The problem is, you're stuck with real-time audio in the gym, so as the projection lag increases, so does the "lip sync" problem.

fran4383 wrote:I assume the NDI PTZ cameras also have at least 300ms of delay? This would not work for gym projectors. Any thoughts? What kind of delay have you experienced with NDI PTZ cameras, just in the camera processing/encoding to NDI?

NDI claims to have end-to-end latency with only 1 frame delay (in ideal conditions), but I've not used it, so YMMV. If you don't have a dedicated Cat5e cable from the NDI camera to your PC, the signal will have to travel over the church LAN. It's a Multicast signal, but ever since NDI 2.0 they have ways of manually specifying which devices will receive the stream so it doesn't get bogged down trying to stream to the entire LAN (including the AP's). The church building LAN will have to have Gigabit switches and good cabling practices to support GigE speeds.

I use either HDMI or SDI output cameras. For HDMI cameras, I convert to SDI. The signals can then travel over the existing 75 Ohm coax already in the walls. OK, most of the time. You have to make sure the coax is "home runned" back to the satellite cabinet, or wherever you setup your streaming gear. This offers about as low latency to your PC as it gets.
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Re: HD Video Distribution in Old Meetinghouses

Postby matthewk » Sat Mar 07, 2020 10:09 pm

We've been building out a newer (non analog) system as best as we can over the last four years for our stake. I've toured other stakes and feel that the setup is much simpler to use and even higher quality (more tolerable latency). If there is interest I could post more about the decisions that were made. The driving factors included: area authorities requiring an HDMI jack at the podium for Saturday sessions, requiring wireless microphones, and requiring hymn lyrics on a screen in the cultural hall. We considered many things including

[*] End-user experience fidelity
[*] Acceptable latency
[*] Microphone placement
[*] Lighting
[*] Camera operation
[*] Switching & Titling
[*] Budget

Our building is 30+ years old so we have to do several hours of temporary setup for each conference which will be greatly reduced if the building wiring is updated.

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Mikerowaved
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Re: HD Video Distribution in Old Meetinghouses

Postby Mikerowaved » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:49 am

matthewk wrote:If there is interest I could post more about the decisions that were made.

I'd love to hear more about your setup and the decisions driving it. We've gone through several iterations over the years also, settling on a system that's far easier to setup than previous years. BTW, we're also on the waiting list to get our stake center upgraded to HD distribution. Our sound system especially is showing its age.
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