D80 Camera Discontinued

Conversations around originating a webcast for conference, including cameras and mixers.
njgpeck
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Re: D80 Camera Discontinued

Postby njgpeck » Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:07 pm

We also went with PTZ Optics cameras. Our last stake conference was flawless. Broadcast to our two other buildings and had people viewing on the web without any issues. We are still using the Teradek.

Just before our stake conference we upgraded the ISP for all three of our buildings to 40Mb down 10Mb up. It made a huge difference. Went setting up the meeting on the church's webcast page I had it test my speed and recommend a setting just to see what it would say. It said HD, but I dropped it down a step to High and it worked great. I've got a IP Joystick camera controller made by PTZ Optics.

fetch0000
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Re: D80 Camera Discontinued

Postby fetch0000 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:41 pm

We use our webcast system for stake conferences and stake trainings, as we broadcast to 4 different buildings, in both Spanish and English. We had many complaints about the video quality of the SD cameras. Therefore, we have made the jump to HD, using 5 PTZOptics Cameras via NDI and Roku devices for the receiving sites. The new cameras are fantastic, being able to adjust the picture quality using the camera IP controller. We are using the PTZOptics IP camera super controller and Vmix as our video and streaming software. We have 4 28inch monitors mounted in our tech room. Two of them are touch screen for operating Vmix, and the other, for the computer desktop. With the other 2 monitors, one shows actual live video output and the other is the Preview or the next live video shot, which allows the person controlling the cameras, to adjust the camera shot. We purchased a customized, top of the line gaming desktop from Origin PC, with a liquid cooled I9 8 core/16 threads CPU, with 64GB Ram, SSD, and an 11GB Nvidia RTX 2080ti video card, with USB thunderbolt and multiple video outputs. We have an Epson 4k mounted projector in the chapel. I happen to be an Epson distributor, which translates to at cost savings! We have automated any and everything that can be automated, including the chapel projector screen and sound system. Everything can be controlled remotely from our tech room or from home via remote access into our tech computer. We have jumped ship with the church streaming system. We now use Sunday Streams. We use the vidiu teradek system as a backup system. We have a backup audio only system for the receiving sites, as well, just in case of an outtage with power or internet. We also have a backup audio system in line, for the chapel, if there becomes an issue with the chapel audio system. We are fortunate to have a stake presidency and FM group that have been very supportive of our technology needs and efforts!

randysteck
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Re: D80 Camera Discontinued

Postby randysteck » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:55 pm

ErikRich06 wrote:
randysteck wrote:Wow, these are extremely expensive solutions. I've not been active in the forum for a while, but the fact that we're still considering cameras costing over $2k is shocking. Plus, even if you've already got an SD camera it is seriously time for an upgrade.

We've been using two Dahua IP cameras, which cost $360 each. They stream at 1080P, have a 25X zoom, excellent low light capability for sometimes dark chapels, with good presets for tall speakers, shorter speakers, choir, chorister, and wider shots. The second camera is side mounted and used for transitions and an alternate speaker view. We stream through Sunday Streams and use vMix (OBS is great also) to mix the video, delay audio and stream all on a PC without using a Vidiu box.

It's extremely simple to set up requiring 20 minutes at the stake center and 5 minutes at the remote location. Remote locations use Roku boxes to receive the stream. We've done 5 conferences with full 1080P and have never had a transmission glitch. With a 3000 to 4000 lumen 1080P projector at the remote sites our attendance has gone up steadily as members see that it's a good experience.

I think we're simply spending too much money for some of these things. The Dahua camera is the SD52C225U-HNI 2MP 25x Starlight PTZ Network Camera.


Not to hijack the thread, but how are you controlling the Dahua cameras? I’m putting together a proposal to add a second camera (currently a d70) and a joystick control for transitions.

Are you using a usb gamepad, joystick, or something like a usb Shuttle Pro?

Thanks in advance!


Again, very sorry for the long delay in response as I'm not being notified of comments anymore for some reason.

We control the cameras through a web interface built into the cameras. We have several presets for each camera and simply switch between them. When we have a training or other need for a speaker who moves around, we use the same controls to track the movement, but have found this to be pretty straightforward also. We have been able to use a joystick for movement controls, but the added equipment was not worth the hassle and is not used that often anyway.

There is some misconception that these cameras give an inferior picture to those costing a lot more. This is not true. The difference is in the smoothness of the movements, which frankly don't matter when we have set shots anyway. The picture quality is excellent and in side to side comparisons to a Sony studio camera was equal or better in virtually everything. Since it's a compressed picture (which we're going to do anyway) having the hardware in the camera do this for broadcast is an advantage in both speed and quality.

Studio cameras used to have better dynamic range, but the newest generation using the same sensors as high end DSLRs give excellent range and response.

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ErikRich06
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Re: D80 Camera Discontinued

Postby ErikRich06 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:09 pm

randysteck wrote:
Again, very sorry for the long delay in response as I'm not being notified of comments anymore for some reason.

We control the cameras through a web interface built into the cameras. We have several presets for each camera and simply switch between them. When we have a training or other need for a speaker who moves around, we use the same controls to track the movement, but have found this to be pretty straightforward also. We have been able to use a joystick for movement controls, but the added equipment was not worth the hassle and is not used that often anyway.

There is some misconception that these cameras give an inferior picture to those costing a lot more. This is not true. The difference is in the smoothness of the movements, which frankly don't matter when we have set shots anyway. The picture quality is excellent and in side to side comparisons to a Sony studio camera was equal or better in virtually everything. Since it's a compressed picture (which we're going to do anyway) having the hardware in the camera do this for broadcast is an advantage in both speed and quality.

Studio cameras used to have better dynamic range, but the newest generation using the same sensors as high end DSLRs give excellent range and response.

Thank you Randy (and the others) for getting back to me. We submitted a quote for two new cameras, and a joystick controller. Hoping to use the Dahua 25x Starlight PTZ (SD52C225U-HNI 2MP) and unsure of which controller. We will be setting up the system and running the wiring ourselves. We are planning to continue using the Vidiu system but might jump ship to "Sunday Streams" and using a Roku at the two receiving sites.

Is there a better or newer camera for the <$400 price? Anything will be an upgrade from our current D70.

randysteck
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Re: D80 Camera Discontinued

Postby randysteck » Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:03 pm

That's the best one we've found so far. I'd be interested in what joystick controller you plan to use and some more details about how well it works out. We've just been using the web interface on the camera for scene control.

Just a note: you do need either a switch or POE injector that can do POE+ power. Not hard to find, but easy to hook up.

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ErikRich06
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Re: D80 Camera Discontinued

Postby ErikRich06 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:34 pm

randysteck wrote:That's the best one we've found so far. I'd be interested in what joystick controller you plan to use and some more details about how well it works out. We've just been using the web interface on the camera for scene control.

Just a note: you do need either a switch or POE injector that can do POE+ power. Not hard to find, but easy to hook up.

Thank you for the reminder about POE+. I was looking at all the options for Dahua cameras that are 1080p. There are quite a slough of them! Who did you order your cameras through?

I like the idea of an Amazon seller. Maybe something like this... Amcrest 25x https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B0796YHDCL Only 1080p/30fps, but that should be plenty.

randysteck
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Re: D80 Camera Discontinued

Postby randysteck » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:04 pm

That looks like a good option. It uses the same sensor as the Dahua we have. This is fairly common practice; we see the new sensors in the Dahua and they show up in others at a later time. I don't have any experience with Amcrest but they are well known domestically. We purchased through a security company, but they don't have the same Dahua at this time; their stock rotates a lot.

If you get more than one camera, getting a POE+ switch makes life a lot easier because it can power cameras as well as be used by non-POE stuff.

Are you going to use a PC with OBS or vMix? If not, you might want to look at it after you get the system up as is. It's incredibly flexible and not that expensive for major benefit.

enelson5
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Re: D80 Camera Discontinued

Postby enelson5 » Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:47 am

We still have D70's in our Stake, and it drives me crazy to deal with the SD to HD aspect ratio issues introduced by the upconverter and Vidiu equipment we've been provided. The speakers at the remote sites appear fat and squatty. Would love to upgrade our SD setup!

One thing I'm curious about regarding these HD camera solutions, is how much video delay is observed after mixing and redistributing the video throughout the building? We set up projectors and screens in the cultural hall as well as TV's in the Relief Society and Primary rooms at the Stake Center. Live audio is carried throughout the building, so there needs to be nearly imperceptible video delays to keep closely in sync with the live audio so that the congregation throughout the building doesn't get annoyed. Of course, this is less of an issue with the remote webcast sites.

Also, do these Dahua cameras have a fairly slow pan when zoomed in, say for a shot panning the choir? The D70's are pretty poor for this kind of shot. Also, cameras supporting a physical PTZ controller are really high on my wish list. I currently compose every shot with a Huddlecam PTZ controller because of the variety of heights of speakers, and for the ability to properly frame the chorister (never stands in the same place twice) as well as special musical numbers, and let's not forget those occasional Saturday evening sessions where you want to move a camera onto a congregational member during a Q&A session.

randysteck
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Re: D80 Camera Discontinued

Postby randysteck » Mon Sep 23, 2019 1:24 pm

As mentioned in previous posts, there are two different needs in the stake center from which the broadcast originates. One is transmission to satellite rooms and one is reinforcement in the cultural hall.

Video reinforcement requires very short delays and any IP camera as we've deployed compresses the video stream which adds about 400msec to the video stream. Plus the webcast processing adds a bit more . This would be very noticeable in the cultural hall and we solved the problem by simply not setting up monitors there. Interestingly we've not had any complaints or requests to resume. If we do need to we'd set up a separate camera on the stage with HDMI or SDI to projectors/screens in the cultural hall as there is no need for the same program as seen in the remote locations.

Satellite rooms can use the same broadcast feed as is sent to remote locations, which includes the sound. This means that you don't need the live sound in those rooms, just the sound from the broadcast. We send HDMI over cable using a converter that allows existing cable to be used to satellite TVs. Feedback from those areas is that it is excellent with 1080P images. In effect we treat the satellite rooms as remote locations.

You can set up the Dahua cameras for slow pan, but when zoomed in it is really not that smooth. It's fine for longer views. Since we use two of them, we simply reframe the choir from the side and front and fade views back and forth sometimes. Even then we have found that a simple head-on static image works really well. Not cinematic but easier and gives the remote locations almost the same view as they'd have live.

The advantage of the Dahuas are that they are cheap, easily connected and give excellent static images. They are easy to move to different positions, but are not studio quality with zoom and pan contours. We've found that they solve 95% of all the things we need with the higher quality broadcast the one that made a huge difference from SD at the remote locations.

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Mikerowaved
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Re: D80 Camera Discontinued

Postby Mikerowaved » Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:48 am

randysteck wrote:Video reinforcement requires very short delays and any IP camera as we've deployed compresses the video stream which adds about 400msec to the video stream. Plus the webcast processing adds a bit more . This would be very noticeable in the cultural hall and we solved the problem by simply not setting up monitors there.

You're right. 400mS is too long a delay for a rear projector. PTZ cameras with SDI output are quite a bit more expensive, but the delays can be kept down to a few frames (post processing) making it usable for a rear projector. This also adds the ability to put hymn lyrics on the rear screen (for those equipped to do so) negating the need for hymn books or lyris sheets to be distributed in the cultural hall.

randysteck wrote:Satellite rooms can use the same broadcast feed as is sent to remote locations, which includes the sound. This means that you don't need the live sound in those rooms, just the sound from the broadcast.

For some buildings this wouldn't work so well because the overflow rooms are within close earshot of the chapel audio, either direct or via the speakers in the foyers. Closing the overflow room doors would help, but this isn't a desirable solution.
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